In response to Bjorn's post on the last blog, I had never considered Stockholm Syndrome with regard to the group dynamics, but it perfectly describes the kind of situation where a group's fear of breaking a pact, is stronger than their fear of the consequences if the truth were told.
Turning to Stockholm Syndrome as it relates to the Tapas group is intriguing. All these people, who may now in fact hate each other, are bound together forever more. This little house of cards is just one puff away from tumbling down. Though to be fair, their silence has worked thus far, 11 years on and no-one arrested or charged. Despite Gerry taunting the police for years with 'no evidence' and 'prove it', almost safe in the knowledge that it can't be done. How is he so confident?
A strong character, or characters are holding this pact together, based initially on the collective decision to leave the children alone in the apartments and I agree, it's Gerry. His need to control, well everything, was apparent from the off. And that included the Portuguese police investigation - miffed at not being put in charge, he started an investigation of his own. And his own search and his own campaign and his own media monitoring unit. Apart from wearing a massive ‘I am a control freak’ badge, his control needs could not be more obvious. David Payne I am not so sure of, but it was he who first referred to a 'pact' and it was he who led Yvonne Martin and away and told her to sod off.
The tapas group may well need psychological help, but they are educated adults with free will, their prison is of their own making. Their fears, I am sure, all go back to that night in May 2007, when they made the worst decision of their lives. However, my sympathy for them stops there. Some, if not all, were happy to frame an innocent man, Robert Murat, for something he didn't do. That goes into the realms of evil. They are all complicit, all standing on the steps of the Royal Courts of Justice, celebrating their victory. Each of them having it within their power to bring the Madeleine 'search' to a dignified end, but choosing not to, some might say.
How seriously the ‘choosing not to’ is taken by the Portuguese Judiciary and Scotland Yard remains to be seen. Do we, the UK, have an equivalent to the US Fifth Amendment? The right to remain silent, without anything being assumed from it? Please do correct me if I wrong here, and I’m sure someone will, lol. Is it keeping silent, or withholding evidence? Or the far more serious, perverting the course of justice?
What are the consequences of that silence? Well both Portugal and the UK have been put to considerable cost, financially, and this lengthy investigation has tied up the services of many detectives for many years. The newspaper barons have been forced into paying out hundreds of thousands in damages and faced the wrath of the public in Leveson. At least two British Prime Ministers and a couple of Home Secretaries will face huge embarrassment when their poor judgement is exposed, and embarrassment is the best they can hope for.
The McCanns and their friends have far more to fear from those higher up the social scale than those at the bottom who they perceive to be their enemies. Among that sea of red faces will be many intent on revenge. For example, the Madeleine case has been the kiss of death for the tabloids. As recently as 2007, most of us still believed that the newspapers were not allowed, by law, to lie to us - we knew of course that they were politically biased, but we had no idea how far the rabbit hole went.
However, in 2007, news was no longer restricted by borders. And as a human interest story, it reached a much bigger demographic, even Sun readers began to see that their daily newspaper was lying to them. Those of us hooked by the drama straight away, were witness to the huge difference in the way the Madeleine case was reported in the UK and the way it was reported in Portugal. We ‘english’ were being stirred up to believe this was a case of National pride, two British citizens were being victimized. And alarmingly, our government and the MSM were in on it! They chose to believe the two British suspects over the Portuguese police.
However, in 2007, news was no longer restricted by borders. And as a human interest story, it reached a much bigger demographic, even Sun readers began to see that their daily newspaper was lying to them. Those of us hooked by the drama straight away, were witness to the huge difference in the way the Madeleine case was reported in the UK and the way it was reported in Portugal. We ‘english’ were being stirred up to believe this was a case of National pride, two British citizens were being victimized. And alarmingly, our government and the MSM were in on it! They chose to believe the two British suspects over the Portuguese police.
But returning to Stockholm Syndrome and all those closely involved. Each, I think have secrets and fears, each will be judged on their own actions and decisions. They have not protected themselves with their statements to the PJ, they have protected Gerry and Kate. They too were stupid enough to leave babies and young children unattended while they went out to dinner. It was a group decision, and each of their statements are that part of the puzzle that makes up the 'group statement'. All agreed on Madeleine's colouring book on the night the child disappeared, and reaffirmed in a get together prior to the Rogatory interviews.
If each of them were isolated and questioned individually without collaboration with the rest of the group, their statements would probably be quite different. The tapas group stayed in PDL for a further 10 days after Madeleine disappeared, giving plenty of time to build a story and alibis. They weren't out searching with the police and volunteers, they stayed close to the parents throughout. They didn't search on the night and they didn't help with the searches in the days that followed. For me, their failure to search for the child speaks volumes.
I very much doubt the group have grown closer over the years, the secret they share must be like having a heavy chain around your neck, a chain that gets heavier and tighter with each passing year. As a commitment phobe, I can't imagine anything worse than being bound to other people against my will. The tapas group were not lifelong friends, they did know each other as well as they said, which makes it all the more strange that the parents had 100% faith that their friends weren't involved.
We all meet hundreds of friends along life's journey, but very few last long enough to become part of our intimate circle. For me it is usually 3, 4 at a push, that's all I have time for, I like Jerry Seinfeld's practical approach on the issue of friends, each has a place and there are rarely vacancies! For each of my close friends, I could give a zillion reasons why they could not and would not steal a child. For friends on the periphery that I hardly know, I couldn't say the same. Kate was witness to her friends leaving the table during the course of the dinner, how could she not suspect them?
The foundations for this group's relationship were built on very rocky ground, each is dependent on the other not to expose them as liars. Each has to stick to the group statement compiled on the back of Maddie's colouring book. They cannot deviate from the script in any way, and every time they talk about it, the chances are they will. Gerry and Kate, Kate especially, become very agitated when asked to go over the details of that night. They recite the well practised and rehearsed set script. There is no embellishment and nothing else has come to mind in 11 years, no detail as to how they reached that collective decision to leave the kids alone, no detail as to their own behaviour that night and the days that followed. The nearest to a human reaction, was bizarrely, Gerry's calling from God as he prayed in the local church. Go forth and find Maddie, and all missing children, the good Lord told him, not in those exact words, I believe it was a tunnel of light.
I'm not sure Stockholm Syndrome applies to the tapas friends, admittedly it could be because I have little sympathy for them. Their cavalier attitude towards the duty of care they owed their children, appals me, so too their arrogance. In fact I think I will wind myself up by having a re-read of their rogatory interviews.
I also think there are several alpha males within that group, who are vying to be top dog, they are all competitive but perhaps none so much as Gerry, whose tennis tournaments continued while others searched for his daughter. Gerry takes the crown, but I doubt the others are submissive, they each hold Ace cards they can play at any time. Gerry is as enslaved as any hostages he has taken, they all are.
I very much doubt the group have grown closer over the years, the secret they share must be like having a heavy chain around your neck, a chain that gets heavier and tighter with each passing year. As a commitment phobe, I can't imagine anything worse than being bound to other people against my will. The tapas group were not lifelong friends, they did know each other as well as they said, which makes it all the more strange that the parents had 100% faith that their friends weren't involved.
We all meet hundreds of friends along life's journey, but very few last long enough to become part of our intimate circle. For me it is usually 3, 4 at a push, that's all I have time for, I like Jerry Seinfeld's practical approach on the issue of friends, each has a place and there are rarely vacancies! For each of my close friends, I could give a zillion reasons why they could not and would not steal a child. For friends on the periphery that I hardly know, I couldn't say the same. Kate was witness to her friends leaving the table during the course of the dinner, how could she not suspect them?
The foundations for this group's relationship were built on very rocky ground, each is dependent on the other not to expose them as liars. Each has to stick to the group statement compiled on the back of Maddie's colouring book. They cannot deviate from the script in any way, and every time they talk about it, the chances are they will. Gerry and Kate, Kate especially, become very agitated when asked to go over the details of that night. They recite the well practised and rehearsed set script. There is no embellishment and nothing else has come to mind in 11 years, no detail as to how they reached that collective decision to leave the kids alone, no detail as to their own behaviour that night and the days that followed. The nearest to a human reaction, was bizarrely, Gerry's calling from God as he prayed in the local church. Go forth and find Maddie, and all missing children, the good Lord told him, not in those exact words, I believe it was a tunnel of light.
I'm not sure Stockholm Syndrome applies to the tapas friends, admittedly it could be because I have little sympathy for them. Their cavalier attitude towards the duty of care they owed their children, appals me, so too their arrogance. In fact I think I will wind myself up by having a re-read of their rogatory interviews.
I also think there are several alpha males within that group, who are vying to be top dog, they are all competitive but perhaps none so much as Gerry, whose tennis tournaments continued while others searched for his daughter. Gerry takes the crown, but I doubt the others are submissive, they each hold Ace cards they can play at any time. Gerry is as enslaved as any hostages he has taken, they all are.
The Leics police have given statements now in the public domain that on Saturday 5 May 2007 Kate and Gerry gave the Leics police a list of questions they wanted put to the PJ into the course the investigation would take.
ReplyDeleteIt should be borne in mind the Leics police were acting unlawfully in conducting this meeting but they went ahead.
By Mon 7 May Gerry and the tapas group knew no charges would ever follow.
Nothing has changed nor will it.
Does anybody seriously think OG will investigate the unlawful activities of their fellow officers and the then HS John Reid
''It should be borne in mind the Leics police were acting unlawfully in conducting this meeting but they went ahead.''
DeleteWhich meeting. If it was unlawful they would't have been allowed to proceed.
http://library.college.police.uk/docs/npia/Strategic-debrief-operation-task-2009.pdf
DeletePage14:
"As no request had been received from the Portuguese police, the force contacted the FCO and through them offered the services of the FLOs and the incident room to the Portuguese authorities. This led to a request by email from the Portuguese police on Friday 4 May for the deployment of officers to support the family in Portugal. This was quickly followed by Section 26 Police Act approval from the Secretary of State and the officers were deployed the following day, which was the Saturday of a bank holiday weekend."
That is the point Matt Baggott and Reid told the UK police to ignore the law it did not apply to them and they obeyed.
DeleteThey are guilty of criminal offences which is why we have an 11year old farce
Why do you think the PJ wanted formal statements from the Leics officers as to why they were in PDL and who authorised their activity.
Anonymous 19.1 @20:10
DeleteWe've been over this ground before, as JJ will no doubt be aware.
Who do you suppose might have been responsible for the knee-jerk 4 May e-mail from Portugal mentioned in the NPIA de-brief? It certainly wasn't GA. He invited CEOP, almost as an afterthought, on 7 May.
Reading his own chapter 6 (on the arrival of the English police) it becomes apparent that he was wholly unaware of any members of Leicestershire Constabulary being on site prior to 6 May, the date he assigns to the first arrival of police from the UK.
If the NPIA document is to be believed (and it is at least misleading in certain respects) then there should be a record of this reactive 'Thanks for the offer do please come and help' e-mail to which their de-briefing document refers.
Any link to such documentation would be much appreciated.
In the meantime, the subsequent section of this same NPIA document (p.15, under the sub-heading, 'The Consequences of This Initial Deployment') illustrates perfectly the anomalous nature of Police behaviour at the time.
Anonymous20 January 2018 at 10:27
DeleteThank you.
T
Anonymous at 10:27
DeleteMargaret Beckett? Luís Amado?
http://library.college.police.uk/docs/npia/Strategic-debrief-operation-task-2009.pdf
DeletePage 15:
"There has only been one other case reported to the debrief team where, as in Operation Task, the pressure for assistance has come from the UK rather than from the country concerned. This occurred when an officer in a force had been asked to look into a family’s concerns that the investigation into a murder abroad had not been thorough enough. The officer concluded that more could be done with UK assistance. The country concerned was reluctant to have direct assistance in the investigation and would only allow officers to travel there to carry out training.”
et cetera
Anonymous @ 14:30
DeleteYou appear to have overlooked the first, i.e. prior (and more telling) paragraph. Allow me to reproduce it with further comment:
"It is unknown whether the Portuguese authorities would have requested assistance if Leicestershire Constabulary had not offered to deploy resources to Portugal."
(Untrue - GA was in direct communication with Glen Power, a police liaison officer assigned to the Embassy, first thing Friday morning, May 4)
"However the debrief workshop suggested it is rare for forces to initiate the provision of support to another country in this way."
(Not only is it rare, it is in contravention of prior (2006) written instruction by the Home Office)
"The normal route is for authorities abroad to request assistance through INTERPOL channels. Should the request come through diplomatic channels, the FCO will refer it to the most appropriate force which can then communicate on a police-to-police basis with the foreign jurisdiction. When assistance is agreed the Secretary of State issues a section 26 authorisation as discussed in Section 2."
(And finally the cruncher)
"At this point the terms of reference for the deployment, its length, the resource requirements and how costs are to be met will be clear."
Given that these aforementioned parameters are to be established BEFORE Section 26 approval is sought from the Home Office, how can anyone within the UK have possibly calculated the resource/cost requirements in the case of a young child apparently missing overseas not 24 hrs previously? Unless, of course, they did their sums beforehand.
Anonymous at 16:46
DeleteA pre-approved mutual assistence agreement had already been authorised by the Home Office?
It was all too precipitous, especially when one considers that according to the NPIA. "The command team of Leicestershire Constabulary first learned of the incident through media reports on the morning of 4 May."
DeleteAnd if you believe that then I have a lease on a bedsit in Buck House that might interest you.
Anon 16.46
DeleteThe Home Office has no authority over mutual assistance agreements.It is the remit of the Foreign Office.
but the NPIA clearly state
In the absence of a clear policy and procedures the Leics police went ahead.....
There is no legislation covering the exchange of information during police to police cooperation as found in operation task
There is no specific template for providing multi agency support to a foreign police force
Can you back up your statement with any evidence whatsoever or do you just write to cause mischief.
The answer to the mystery is not with the tapas 7 but with the Leics police 3.
I am not 16:46 but the following link might be of interest:
Deletehttp://policeauthority.org/metropolitan/downloads/committees/cgc/060922-16-appendix01.pdf
JJ @ 10:50
Delete"Can you back up your statement with any evidence whatsoever or do you just write to cause mischief."
Control yourself. The link put forward by anon. (12:58) above is to the same 2006 communication to which I had myself previously referred. Therein you will find confirmation of the Home Office authority in the matter under discussion as well as the 'template' you believe to be lacking.
"The answer to the mystery is not with the tapas 7"
Who said anything about the Tapas 7? My observations were concerned simply and solely with the manner in which police procedure in relation to section 26 of the Police Act was flagrantly short-circuited by Leicestershire Constabulary.
Surely you do not wish to dispute that?
It is not me that states the template for assistance is lacking but the NPIA in 2007 backed up by ACPO who also state there is no clear policy or procedures to follow.
DeleteThe Leics officers and CEOP did not just short circuit section 26, they broke the law.
I said the answer does not lie with the tapas 7 but with the lies of the Leics 3 I hope that's simple enough for you and answers your question.
JJ @16:50
DeleteI'm all for keeping things simple.
"ACPO (who) also state there is no clear policy or procedures to follow."
Do you have a link for this bizarre statement on the part of ACPO, who were co-authors of the 2006 letter outlining official procedure, and which begins as follows:
"The purpose of this letter, which is being issued jointly by the Home Office, the Association of Chief Police Officers (International Affairs Portfolio) and the Association of Police Authorities is to remind you of the procedure to be followed when police officers are deployed to provide assistance overseas."
How can ACPO have claimed there were no policies in place, when they had clearly already co-signed a reminder to Police Chiefs of what those very policies were?
I would also question the NPIA's position in 2007 as you describe it, since their Operation Task debriefing document certainly does NOT give the reader to understand that "In the absence of a clear policy and procedures the Leics. police went ahead....."
Rather, Leics. Constabulary went ahead despite the policy and procedures clearly set out in writing a year earlier - highly questionable if they did so with Home Office approval, even more so if they did so regardless.
anon 17.51
DeleteNPIA Operation Task
Requests for assistance are ad hoc (rough and ready,makeshift) p3
read p 16
readp17 no specific template....
read p18
all the answers are there in simple ENGLISH
not opinion but the considered thoughts of the private limited company ACPO among other police analysis
JJ @20:13
Delete"all the answers are there in simple ENGLISH"
I beg to differ. The pages (16-18) to which you refer comprise discussion of what NPIA identify as problems associated with multi-agency support, the hydra into which the Leicestershire initiative quickly grew.
"In the absence of a clear policy and procedures it seemed that, as Leicestershire Constabulary had already brokered a request from the Portuguese and a section 26 authority had been issued, they had, in effect, put themselves 'in play'...." (p.16).
All of these references to policy, procedures, templates etc., concern administration of the developed situation. My concern is with the apparent breach of basic protocol which enabled Leicestershire to put themselves 'in play' in the first instance, and which led to their representatives being present in PdL on 5 May, illegally, as you yourself have observed.
Like the media reports which the NPIA claim first informed the Senior Police at Leicestershire Constabulary, it is all too 'urgent' for my liking.
Anonymous 20 January 2018 at 16:46
DeleteAnonymous 21 January 2018 at 00:30 ( :) )
Anonymous 21 January 2018 at 15:38
Anonymous 21 January 2018 at 17:51
Thank you,
T
JJ
DeleteThank you for keeping the discussion going.
T
'' This little house of cards is just one puff away from tumbling down.''
ReplyDeleteAgain ? You've found something new to be an expert in after 2 minutes.You're trying to use it as some wacky way to attribute guilt to not only the parents but the whole Tapas group.That's desperate . The most telling part of this latest silliness is how desperate you have to be and how hard you have to scrape the bottom of the barrel in order to prove something that's already so obvious according to you. You and Bjorn are like some Hammer Horror comedy double act.
Err, I haven't just heard of Stockholm Syndrome you numpty, lol.
DeleteWhat am I desperate about? I'm actually quite chilled and looking forward to watch Celebrity Big Brother with a big old bowl of spag bol and garlic bread. No desperation here.
Hammer Horror I can't take as an insult, I was a great fan, so I'll take a bow, and I'm sure Bjorn will too! :)
Hi Ros,on whose say so were the children left alone and why do you believe it?
ReplyDeleteFor me, the book of Goncalo Amaral, The Truth of the Lie, is probably the closest theory to what actually happened.
DeleteThe theory of the armchair detectives that the children weren't left alone, I find ludicrous. Why would the others put themselves at risk of criminal charges of neglect/child endangerment? A risk that could see them struck off the Medical Register.
I have also read their statements, their attitude to looking after their kids stinks, but it's real enough, and it's not something you can fake.
''For me, the book of Goncalo Amaral, The Truth of the Lie, is probably the closest theory to what actually happened. ''
DeleteYes of course. His theory ( which one btw ? ) has been the working model for so many investigators ever since. hence the success.He made guess after guess and mistake after mistake until his bosses had seen and heard enough.As a policeman he makes a good author of poor fiction.I can understand why you feel such an affinity with him.Everyone can.
20:38
Delete("His theory ( which one btw ? ) has been the working model for so many investigators ever since. hence the success.")
How about Operation Grange?
cobblers poppycock claptrap baloney twaddle bo llocks tripe..
ReplyDeleteIf you had just included : Rubbish, Garbage, Trash, and Bullshit, I'd have thought you were naming England's World Cup team for next year!
DeleteGaggzy 21 January 2018 at 02:59
Delete:)
T
I was afraid this would appear as a new thread before it was given any genuine thought or study. And here we are, along with a quote from Aldous Huxley wrongly attributed to William Blake as a starting point. That was unfortunate. What do the doors of perception have to do with the strange syndrome anyway ? It's hardly the enigma code.It's just a strange hypothesis born in 'liberal' Sweden. And what does the strange hypothesis really have to with the Tapas group ? Is it just a clever way to state a 'thick as thieves' position ? A 'divided we fall' position ? Maybe a 'birds of a feather ' idea ? Or don't they have a syndrome that sounds clever enough yet ...
ReplyDelete''I also think there are several alpha males within that group, who are vying to be top dog,''
Would they be the same alpha males you keep saying are jittery at the sight of their own shadow ? That's very alpha. You talk about these people as though you mix within their circle and take high tea with them while you secretly scan their body language and social interactions.But you don't.You're guessing in the dark and trying to pass it off as likely without a shred of anything to support yourself.
VT
"If the doors of perception were cleansed, every thing would appear to man as it is: infinite." ~ William Blake
Delete"There are things you know about, and things you don’t, the known and the unknown, and in between are the doors—that’s us." ~ Ray Manzarek
Err, William Blake preceded Aldous Huxley by about 200 years, and was a great influence on him, the title of his book 'The Doors of Perception' is a quote from a Blake poem. And in case you are also attributing 'Brave New World' to Huxley, that's a quote from Shakespeare.
DeleteThe Blake quote I have used refers to many doors VT, and there are many doors in this case, each one hiding a dark secret.
Alpha males are not immune to the jitters VT, as demonstrated by Gerry, who almost always has the jitters. Alpha male Goncalo Amaral by contrast, never has the jitters, he is at ease in interviews, answering questions freely and without constraint.
I am interested in the dynamics of the group, but you are right, very little is known, they don't appear to have spoken since 2007. It's difficult, but not impossible, they gave statements.
For me, deconstructing texts is second nature, it's something I studied at degree level, and it's something I have continued to study and practice ever since. It goes hand in hand with my study of human behaviour and psychology.
You are free, of course, to disagree with my findings and opinions, but there is nothing to dispute about my education. I have spent a lifetime studying, my joy in life is the knowledge I acquire each day. How dare you come on here and try to portray me as some poorly educated hater, trying to pass myself off as an expert. If I were a man, would you dismiss all my qualifications and in depth knowledge of subjects I had studied so casually?
Well tough VT, I am a fecking expert. I know this case inside out and upside down, and yes I can read the body language, and the micro expressions, just as well as I can read your character from the posts you submit.
I could, if I wanted, deconstruct every paragraph of Kate's book and Gerry's blog, as John Blacksmith said, Kate's book is longest suicide note in history. The body language too, I am itching to interpret, but you will note, I have held back on that, thus far. I will save all the deconstructing for my own Madeleine book, when the time is right.
@ 16:56
DeleteComrade
Your attribution is, likely, also wrong: word for word, the quote is from neither Billy nor Ogie.
Rosalinda, I guess, was, in this instance, more interested in what the quote said than in the identity of its author.
Peace.
T
The Doors? :)
T at 19:41
DeleteMusic is my special friend. Take it as it comes.
NL
Rosalinda, Cristobell Hutton19 January 2018 at 19:28
Delete'' there are many doors in this case, each one hiding a dark secret.''
In your oh so humble opinion. The thing is, a secret, by definition isn't known to anyone who holds it. You're guessing - again.
'' Amaral by contrast, never has the jitters, he is at ease in interviews, answering questions freely and without constraint. ''
Can you prove any of your allegations Amaral ? Can this case be solved, Amaral ?
''For me, deconstructing texts is second nature, it's something I studied at degree level, and it's something I have continued to study and practice ever since. It goes hand in hand with my study of human behaviour and psychology. ''
I studied it at degree level.You should remember that a text can be deconstructed , analysed and discussed in many ways. Frankenstein, for instance, can be discussed from an ideological viewpoint, a feminist viewpoint, a psycho -analytical viewpoint . That doesn't mean one or two are right and others are wrong. How does your 'death of the author' stand when you're deconstructing texts to then forward as a reflection of the the author's character ?Or do you forgt that selectively ?
I also studied Psychology at degree level, rather than watching people and documentaries. At degree level it's far more arduous and often dull.But it also requires a level of study far deeper than required to view documentaries that are far more accessible and entertaining. Even before reaching degree level the first thing you learn is that there is no right or wrong, only hypotheses that are found to have significant support or not.
''You are free, of course, to disagree with my findings and opinions, but there is nothing to dispute about my education. ''
At what level did you study Psychology and was it enough to now allow you to claim knowledge and expertise ?
''How dare you come on here and try to portray me as some poorly educated hater''
You are misquoting me as usual in order to have something to attack me for. I ask you enough questions, but you rarely answer. they're golden opportunities for you. But you prefer to misquote me instead. You could, of course, post the quote of me accusing you of being poorly educated . Will you ? The 'hater' thing isn't exclusive to the uneducated. Hatred is evidence of nature rather than education. Having a PhD doesn't stop you hating.
'' If I were a man, would you dismiss all my qualifications and in depth knowledge of subjects I had studied so casually? ''
Absolutely.I'd be more interested in the depth of knowledge and understanding rather than the piece of paper. A great memory can achieve a pass.
''Well tough VT, I am a fecking expert. I know this case inside out and upside down, and yes I can read the body language, and the micro expressions, just as well as I can read your character from the posts you submit. ''
You can't. You just think you can.And you treasure your own opinion above all others. That's arrogance, not confidence.All of your interpretations of character are subjective and reveal more about yourself than who you think you're analysing.
You may well be itching to deconstruct and interpret KMs book and the body language of the McCanns and Tapas group. So what ? It's all been done to death and yielded nothing more than internet gossip and Twitter tennis.
Good luck with the book. Don't hold back on that too long. All signs point to that gravy train / cash cow coming to a halt soon.
VT
PS : The Blake quote.
''If the doors of perception were cleansed every thing would appear to man as it is, infinite...For man has closed himself up, till he sees all things thro’ narrow chinks of his cavern.''
Ironically, that's more accurate and it would have been more apt.
VT (03:53)
DeleteIronically, "man" does not exclude you.
Again with the patronising and sneering VT, ironic as your own posts don't show so much as a hint of the psychology degree you claim to have. If you are as educated as you claim, you are hiding it extremely well. You are not even up to speed with this case as you haven't read the key books. Did your university lecturers teach you to reach conclusions by skipping the research?
DeleteIf you do indeed have a degree in psychology, your former lecturers must be hanging their heads in shame. No psychologist or academic would diagnose thousands of members of the public as 'haters' based on their disbelief of an unbelievable story. Your ignorance on this matter is astonishing.
Academics don't have closed minds VT, yet yours is not only closed, you are also wearing blinkers and putting your hands over your ears. No hypothesis is wrong you state, while telling me that I am wrong because I know how to make education both interesting and entertaining.
You claim to have superior knowledge based on books you studied, 30/40 years ago, as if they were carved in stone, ignoring all the advances in psychology for the past 4 decades.
Regarding the William Blake quote, T, is quite correct, I chose the words with care as they applied to this case, and you hadn't even read them, because you mistook them for the Doors of Perception book by Aldous Huxley, laughingly claiming Huxley came up with the phrase 200 years after Blake.
You don't pose any interesting questions and you certainly don't answer questions put to you. In the last blog I asked why the McCanns didn't publish the Smithman efits 5 years earlier, those efits that look like Gerry? I'm still waiting for your response.
NL 19 January 2018 at 22:13
DeleteGreetings, Красный бант в волосах!
You've got a (special) friend.
T:)
Anonymous 20 January 2018 at 10:00
Delete(And the clock struck 10:00)
Interesting comment. Makes me think.
Thanks.
T
Rosalinda, Cristobell Hutton20 January 2018 at 12:00
Delete''Again with the patronising and sneering VT, ironic as your own posts don't show so much as a hint of the psychology degree you claim to have. If you are as educated as you claim, you are hiding it extremely well. ''
You have the monopoly on sneering, Ros. Why would I post anything academic on a blog like this ?Or any blog, come to think of it. It isn't a case of hiding anything well, it's a case of knowing the audience. Your audience doesn't log on here to read psychology papers.It's a crime in discussion.
'' You are not even up to speed with this case as you haven't read the key books''
Are they academic books ? I'm interested in the crime and the investigation, not books written about it. I'll read one after it's solved.I wouldn't waste money on anyone exploiting a tragedy.
'' No psychologist or academic would diagnose thousands of members of the public as 'haters' based on their disbelief of an unbelievable story. Your ignorance on this matter is astonishing. ''
They wouldn't use a colloquialism . They wouldn't 'diagnose' anything of anyone based on reading texts on the internet either.That's you showing your naivety. At most, they'd observe the lack of depth and breadth of their study and raise an eyebrow at the astonishing claims they base on it. I'm not ignorant.Grow up.
''Academics don't have closed minds VT, yet yours is not only closed, you are also wearing blinkers and putting your hands over your ears''
Classic projection. You play one note 24/7. You've played it for years and will continue to. How many regular posters question as much as I do ? How many suggest looking at new angles or different scenarios as the so called perceived wisdom of the masses in this instance has led nowhere at all. Ask the Police.
''No hypothesis is wrong you state, while telling me that I am wrong because I know how to make education both interesting and entertaining. ''
Actually, I said no hypothesis in psychology.Try making Psychology entertaining.
The Blake quote subject is already old.I wonder, whoever you want to believe is responsible for it, how it connects to the theme of the thread and the Stockholm Syndrome of the title.
''You don't pose any interesting questions and you certainly don't answer questions put to you''
That's your opinion as I question you and your repeated arguments.I answer all questions.You can't say the same.
'' In the last blog I asked why the McCanns didn't publish the Smithman efits 5 years earlier, those efits that look like Gerry? I'm still waiting for your response. ''
They the parents of the child who went missing, not publishers or journalists.You should be asking why the PJ / SY didn't do it.
VT
The parents may not be publishers or journalists but they were perfectly capable of holding press conferences, highlighting the man seen by Jane Tanner, the pyjamas Madeleine supposedly wore and a Victoria Beckham lookalike. The only thing stopping them from advertising those Smithman efits was themselves. Why? Surely a man seen carrying a child by at least 6 people was significant to their search? Wasn't it the proof they needed that there was an abduction?
DeleteYou are bullshitter VT, and not even a very good one, 100 monkeys with typewriters are more likely to produce an academic psychology paper than you are.
Do you even know what Stockholm Syndrome is? I'm guessing not, because you haven't mentioned it, nor have you discussed whether it has an impact on this case or not. Instead you have ripped into my education and character and reverted to the only thesis you have, people who don't believe the McCanns are haters.
You are not capable of rational discussion because you VT are either personally involved or blinded by the hate and contempt you feel for anyone who doesn't agree with you. You don't behave like an academic, in fact you don't even behave like an adult.
''You are not capable of rational discussion because you VT are either personally involved or blinded by the hate and contempt you feel for anyone who doesn't agree with you. You don't behave like an academic, in fact you don't even behave like an adult.''
DeleteYou forgot to tell him that he smells too.As VT advised, Rosalinda, grow up.
A lot of people who don't believe the McCanns just say as much. They don't hate. You dedicate your life to studying them but pretending it's the case you're studying and I see now you want to try and make money from writing a book. You have plenty of hate and little else Ros. You concentrate most of it on the McCanns.It's eating you away and possibly could be effecting your senses the way you lash out and rant like a bad tempered child.Or have you always been so deeply unpleasant ?
Delete''Surely a man seen carrying a child by at least 6 people was significant to their search? Wasn't it the proof they needed that there was an abduction?''
DeleteWhat do the police think of that theory ?
18:39 The police named him as their prime suspect in a revelation moment on Crimewatch.
DeleteAgain with the attacks on my character, no time to look up Stockholm Syndrome eh? lol. And of course no time to explain why two parents supposedly searching for their missing child, withheld vital information that could have found her.
Delete''Again with the attacks on my character, no time to look up Stockholm Syndrome eh? lol.''
Delete'lol' indeed. Cast whichever mind is driving tonight back to your previous thread.
Anonymous19 January 2018 at 03:30
''The Stockholm Syndrome would not be applicable if considering a child of 3-4 years old. The syndrome does little or nothing for the credibility of Psychology.The case which inspired it is full of holes and nonsense for a start. The imagined 'bond' between an abductor and his prey can occur when a victim is able to tune in on a vulnerability of their abductor and use it to empathise and win their confidence and trust.It can be a useful method of survival if the abductor has the right flaw in his character and isn't just a psychopath. On rare occasions a common ground can be found that both share and the bond makes it harder for the abductor to harm their prey and harder for the prey to testify against their abductor.I emphasis 'rare'. To try and use this syndrome to explain why the tapas group are bonded is beyond silly.''
VT
http://cristobell.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/ides-of-march-ii-end-of-search.html
( ides of march II etc )
That was all the subject deserved.
I suggest you email Amaral,or any other officer of rank since Amaral, and ask them why the parents went unpunished or unexamined for withholding vital information.
VT
Rosalinda, Cristobell Hutton20 January 2018 at 19:00
Delete''18:39 The police named him as their prime suspect in a revelation moment on Crimewatch.''
And the name was ?
@VT 20 January 2018 at 20:51
DeleteHi
This is not about applying the Stockhom Syndrome to a missing little girl, but to the group dynamics in general that surrounds it. I beg you to see it that way.As the Madeleine case seems to be going nowhere, any new approach to it may perhaps lead somewhere.
Destructive loyalties, that arise during traumatic experiences or during an entire upbringing may be impossible to break away from for some people.
One of the girls, who was held hostage in Stockholm in the vault of the Kreditbanken 40 years ago, began a love relationship with the most dominant of the two notorious criminals in whose mercy they were, none of whom cared the least about her or her two colleagues’ fear or well-being during that drama. Besides, this young man had earlier been in prison for armed robbery and since then he has spent most of his time in prisons around Europe, but is now about to be released from a Dutch prison, where he’s been the past some years.
The most remarkable and perhaps also astonishing at least to those who don’t know anything about the Stockholm Syndrome theory or what may happen to people who have lived under severe threat, is the fact that this victimized woman still has the same warm feelings for her criminal captor and that she’s now about to write a book on the subject together with this culprit. She has always vehemently dismissed that she has suffered from anything related to the Stockholm Syndrome theory. Need I say, that she most certainly does.
Wherever false loyalties come about due to traumatic accidents, kidnapping, or whatever, I believe that the Stockholm Syndrome is applicable as a general idea, which could help us understand what may have happened to those involved. As for the Madeleine case, all of the tapas 9, regardless of what had happened should have been offered psychological assistance, as all of them must have been more or less traumatized.
@Björn20 January 2018 at 22:35
Delete''This is not about applying the Stockhom Syndrome to a missing little girl, but to the group dynamics in general that surrounds it''
The foundation of the strange syndrome is based on the relationship between captor/s and abductor/s, not within a group. Group dynamics between captors are a separate and different issue. The same applies to the dynamics within a group of captives. That's why it's a strange syndrome that has little support. In my initial reply on the subject near the top of the thread, i mentioned reasons that the bond between captor and captive, on rare occasions, can occur.That is, the survival instinct of the victim. In a situation such as that which occurred in the vault in Stockholm, loyalties would have existed within the group of captives because they were all in the same life threatening situation and the unity wold have given them strength.Similar can be argued concerning the captors, as they had a shared goal .They're understandable and logical thought processes . They stand up to logic.
When a loyalty or bond develops between one of the endangered group and a captor, it becomes harder to understand or explain beyond a survival strategy and difficult to explain in logical terms.But that's the Stockholm Syndrome - the relationship between captor and captive. It isn't about group dynamics. That's a different loyalty altogether. The captives are likely to form bonds due to sharing and surviving a traumatic experience. The captors have no choice but to remain bonded as they share the danger of becoming captives of the State should one of them weaken. If one card falls, the house falls.I think, reading your post, you are trying somehow to suggest the Tapas group fall in to the latter.That they are bonded by the fear that should one say the wrong thing, they're all in trouble. You aren't considering the other position that says they are bonded through a shared traumatic experience.Unless the investigation finds incriminating evidence against one of the group, the loyalty they have to each other is considered, logically, as natural result of shared trauma.If one is charged with a crime, or the concealment of a crime and perverting the course of justice,the loyalty can be seen as a self preservation strategy to avoid prison.Again, a natural result of a shared experience that could potentially ruin them all.
Of all the the Tapas group and parents, I'd suggest it is the parents who could have been offered psychological assistance as it was they who suffered a loss and more traumatic experience.They appear to have chosen God and their faith for strength instead. They may well have been offered counseling, we don't know do we ?But it was , and still is, open ended in terms of what the actual loss will amount to.Maybe that too can explain their loyalty to each other.Unity is strength. The mass online hysteria that has decided that the parents were responsible for burying their own child and knowingly sparking an 11 year fake investigation, along with the extended accusations of the Tapas group being involved in that, would also give them a determination to stick together for strength.That would make sense.
The Stockholm Syndrome is ropey.There's little support for it within law enforcement and little within Psychology .That needs to be borne in mind before we try to take it and apply it even more confusingly to a novel situation.
VT
Kate McCann on "holiday friends" in her account of the truth:
ReplyDelete"We spent so much time closeted with various advisers that we didn’t see much of our holiday friends, except for Fiona. She knew us and our children so well: she understood, as far as anyone else could understand, and that made her support very important to me. I bumped into the others at the Tapas area one day. They were standing there helplessly and Jane and Russ were crying. Soon we were all crying and hugging each other. It was just so awful."
It's not a very helpful description, is it?
But what a contrast to :
Delete(Ros)
''The foundations for this group's relationship were built on very rocky ground, each is dependent on the other not to expose them as liars....Each, I think have secrets and fears..
18:46
DeleteContrasting, but not mutually exclusive.
Hi Ros,thanks for the post,Stockholme syndrome-Tapas 7/9 Syndrome?
ReplyDeleteYou must understand that Operation Grange Police Commanders down wards have stated on the Record,"The Parents and the Tapas group of friends are Not suspects and have Not been interviewed under caution" since Portugal PJ as(Witnesses) had to shelve their investigation in 2008!
Paedophiles have taken,Madeleine,as quoted by the Parents,the B**tards have taken her?
They simply forgot to"Jemmie the Shutters"open for access to the wrong bed?
It has been suggested that a very Prominent Portugal Politician,was supposed to have ordered,Madeleine,who was to have been kidnapped after viewing Three pictures of Young girls,from the abductors Portfolio?
Certain Blog sites and now former Dead MI5 Officer,have stated that,these are related to Marc Dutroux, Belgian,with E fits of Mr Dutroux's ex wife,as part of the story,that this"Organisation"is that large they cannot be stopped by Legal Government Appointed persons?
whereas I would hazard a guess,that these" Organisation,cohorts" have exploited the methodology used throughout the World to have"Groomed,Forbidden fruits"for their elite Clientle,now wouldn't that be some"Conspiracy Theory",that people in power have preyed on vulnerable people,Never!
UK children exported to"Commonwealth Countries,film,Oranges and Sunshine" Bindoon Brotherhood?
UK Care Homes,Bryn Alyn,Estyn, Islington,Lambeth,Elm guest House,Kincora Boys Home,Dunblane,Haute De La Grange,Jersey,South Yorkshire Police 1400 Girls Groomed,that they did not know about?
If it is proven that"Paedophiles,Abducted Madeleine",just think of how much money they,Kate Gerry could receive in compensation for the lies,villafication associated to their names of harming their daughter,Madeleine?
Portugal Supreme Court for one,as stated by the Public findings in that Court case?
''I very much doubt the group have grown closer over the years, the secret they share must be like having a heavy chain around your neck''
ReplyDeleteWhat secret, Mrs I'm Not Saying Who Did it ?
'' The right to remain silent, without anything being assumed from it? Please do correct me if I wrong here, and I’m sure someone will, lol. Is it keeping silent, or withholding evidence? Or the far more serious, perverting the course of justice? ''
ReplyDeleteIt's none of the above. A 'pact of silence' is merely a decision agreed upon. It has no official or legal base.Only when you get into the 'no comment' area of an official interview does the question arise . They appear to have decided on the withholding discussing it generally as no words mean no words can be twisted or misinterpreted.If any solid evidence should magically appear against even one of the group, the pact of silence won't protect them in court.But what are the odds of that happening after this amount of time ?
VT
For goodness sake Ros, surely you can't believe that the kids - all 8 of them - were left alone every night?
ReplyDeleteMcCann kids left alone in unlocked apartment = possibility of Madeleine's abduction.
There was one person each night who was "sick" and failed to make the tapas dinner, Thursday it was Russell's turn because of a sick child.
I think something happened to Madeleine the first weekend and a plan was hatched.
Gerry told a comparitive stranger,Jezz Wilkins, they were leaving the kids alone every night - who in their right minds would broadcast that? But it set the scene.
And Diane, the Grandma- obviously brought along to help with the grandkids but quite happy to follow her neglectful daughter's example and also leave the kids to go for a meal every night. I really don't think so.
Hi 19:14, yes I do believe the kids were left alone, see answer given above.
DeleteThe idea that something happened earlier in the week and they all carried on with their holiday, is so macabre, no-one could possibly do that. Think about it. Dead child in wardrobe, let's all go down to the beach. It's sick.
Leaving the kids alone is horrendous, to us, but it wasn't to them - read their statements, the tapas group especially. Yes, those kids were left alone, and the biggest danger that faced them was an accident.
GA was the lead detective 19:14, he has far more first hand knowledge than those on the net who claim to have solved this case.
The idea that this group continued their holiday as if nothing had happened is a sick fantasy. You are shocked that Diane, the Grandma, would go along with the neglect of the children, yet you accept without question that Diane, the Grandma could carry on sunbathing and playing tennis etc, knowing one of the children was dead?
19 January 2018 at 18:45
DeleteYes.
The alleged "pact of silence" remains a hearsay.
T
anon 19:14
Delete''surely you can't believe that the kids - all 8 of them - were left alone every night?''
Why not ?
''I think something happened to Madeleine the first weekend and a plan was hatched.''
Why ?
''Gerry told a comparitive stranger,Jezz Wilkins, they were leaving the kids alone every night - who in their right minds would broadcast that?''
Hardly a broadcast is it - one person. He said he was leaving the kids in the apartment, not tying them up.
''And Diane, the Grandma- obviously brought along to help with the grandkids''
Why obviously ?
''quite happy to follow her neglectful daughter's example and also leave the kids to go for a meal every night.''
What's wrong with eating each night ? What's wrong with eating out if you're on holiday ?
''I really don't think so.''
Why ?
VT
http://falsificationofhistory.co.uk/false-history/deconstructing-the-madeleine-mccann-story/
ReplyDelete19 January 2018 at 22:43
ReplyDeleteInteresting. Thank you.
T
Hi Ros,
ReplyDeleteWonderful write up as ever.
The learned Psychologist "VT", who I believe sometimes posts as: "Ziggy" is always good for a laugh
Keep this psycho on a string and we can all have a good laugh.
On a shift of topic.
Going back to the night of May 3rd. I'm just wondering how Madeleine could have "fallen" behind the sofa/bed if she had been dosed with Calpol like her two siblings had. These two babies showed no reaction to police and people entering the place and were clearly knocked out enough to sleep soundly when being moved. Maybe the same dose was not enough to put their elder sister to sleep.
Even if she did fall from a bed enough to bleed (must have been a lot of blood) there was a huge amount of cleaning and clothes washing going on...and then to top it all, they printed and copied 'Find Madeleine' posters the same night... Just like any normal family would do!
That is totally breathtaking.
But don't forget, none of this happened. She was abducted!
jc
'' I'm just wondering how Madeleine could have "fallen" behind the sofa/bed if she had been dosed with Calpol like her two siblings had''
DeleteNobody has said she fell behind a sofa. It's just one of the more popular guesses with no substance.A bit like the Calpol one.
'' These two babies showed no reaction to police and people entering the place and were clearly knocked out enough to sleep soundly when being moved''
How 'clear' was that to the police at the scene ? What would the required dose of Calpol be to achieve the effect of an anaesthetic yet not cause vomiting ?
''Even if she did fall from a bed enough to bleed (must have been a lot of blood) there was a huge amount of cleaning and clothes washing going on''
Huge amount of cleaning ? Where did you get that from or is it a guess ? Because the 'lot of blood' wasn't at the scene could mean that there wasn't a lot of blood at the scene. No cleaning up needed. Blood found was microscopic.Who had bled ? When you have 3 children ages 3 and younger, a lot of laundry is part of the routine.Were they supposed to leave clothes unwashed because they were on holiday ?Or does the McCanns cleaning of clothes assist you in building the scenario of children knocked unconscious and one bleeding everywhere ? How have so many detectives failed to pick up on this imaginative theory as you have ? Maybe they did and realised it was just that - imagination.
''But don't forget, none of this happened. She was abducted!''
Unless the Police are lying, that would seem to be the working theory of the past 11 years.
''The learned Psychologist "VT", who I believe sometimes posts as: "Ziggy" is always good for a laugh..Keep this psycho on a string and we can all have a good laugh.''
Of course, Sherlock. Let's do that.
VT
@02:05
ReplyDelete"...this psycho..."
Yeah, kill the messenger... Attempting to insult VT, you insult the blog.
Unnecessary and not nice, my friend.
T
Actually I'm with JC on this T, and am myself seeing VT as a bit of a psycho. he is inventing qualifications in an attempt to rubbish my opinions, trying to give the impression that he knows far more than myself and everyone who reads here.
DeleteI am more than happy to go head to head with him for a debate, but his only argument is to attack me personally. While I do indeed have the hind of a rhino where personal attacks are concerned, his patronising and spite are beginning to irk.
Kate I think sums up the attitude of the McCann camp, 'I don't have any respect'...... for those who disbelieve them. VT has no respect for me or my blog, and he makes them perfectly obvious every time he posts.
I actually have zero tolerance for anyone who disrespects me, either in the real world or on here. Life is too short to put up with such unpleasantness and my patience is running out with VT once again. With his constant sniping it's like being unhappily married and putting up with abuse on a daily basis without being able to do anything about it. Again, not something I would tolerate in the real world.
In constantly degrading me, he is hoping to turn my self confidence into self loathing, he is a manipulator, a control freak and yes, some might say, a psycho.
Sorry Ros, but I'm with VT on this one. If you read exchanges between you and VT it is only VT who is offering reasoned argument. It's you who has actually descended to calling names.
DeleteMy meticulous research reveals that ziggy/VT (Mark....surname witheld for privacy reasons) passed out (literaly) from Liverpool University with a Third Class Honours degree in Psychology in 1978.
DeleteSo, let there be no doubt this fine fellow knows what he's talking about.
Rosalinda, Cristobell Hutton 21 January 2018 at 13:32
Delete“Actually I'm with JC on this T…”
That is your prerogative, Rosalinda.
I judge for myself and you are happy for me. (“I'm happy for my readers to judge for themselves…”↓)
Good night, dear.
Bless.
T:)
Ah, I feel I have been scolded T :( and at the same time I can hear the angry growl of my dear old Dad, with his thick Scottish brogue 'Ochhhhhhh Linda!'.
DeleteI loved my dear old dad to pieces T, his was the only power and authority, I never questioned. Well I did, I would go off and sulk for a few hours, but eventually as I thought things through, I would see that he was right.
My dear old dad kept me grounded, essential for a bipolar disorder, the manic highs can be crazy. His was the steadying hand, the voice of sanity, the calm, the sanctuary. As a psychiatric nurse, his thinking and understanding of human behaviour was way ahead of the times.
His nature was to protect, and he protected me by curbing my sharp tongue! His words ‘don’t destroy someone just because you can’ still resonate. So too, my own protest ‘but I have all this wit and I’m not allowed to use it!’. He was right of course, 99 times out of 100, all those ‘lines’ that sound so great in my head, land me in hot water. I’m not sure if that’s a good or bad thing. From a bums on seats perspective, I’d say good, but on self-respect, yes, I could be nobler, but I fear I have inherited a ‘bar room brawler’ gene who likes to get down in the mud and the blood and the beer on occasion! ;)
Bless you T. Even when you scold, you make me smile. :)
Rosalinda, Cristobell Hutton 22 January 2018 at 11:29
DeleteMilady
“Ah, I feel I have been scolded T”
I’m so sorry to hear that, Rosalinda, I certainly didn’t intend to scold you. How sad that you felt the way you did. It is, of course, some relief for me that you blessed me with a smile.
I love it when you write about your parents. I was blessed with mine. Two angels they were, two angels... Where’s m' glass…
Many thanks and best wishes.
Tea?
T :)()
I need scolding now and again T! And you are of course, among a select few, whose words mean much to me and to whom I listen :) My dear old dad, bless him, scolded me often, usually because I was 'just like' my mother, lol. A sharp tongue, head strong, and a little bit crazy. I've now given up on trying to be NOT like my mother, and accept and embrace, being exactly like her!
DeleteWhen she passed, I actually felt her spirit jump into me, mostly the mischievous part, it was if I was given instant carte blanche to use all her sayings, all her expressions, all her flamboyant gestures and her razor sharp wit. It was a ‘the King is dead, long live the King' moment. In her lifetime, it would have been wrong to copy or mimic her, and not a good move where those who had declared her insane, were concerned, but for me, it was awakening. And tbh, trying to pretend to be normal, was killing me! lol.
That's quite a weird story, when I read it over, and one I always swore I would keep to myself, because it sounds so insane. Whilst I do love ghost films, I don’t actually think they are real. My belief system changes on an almost daily basis. For a while I was an athiest, then an anti-theist, then a ‘who cares, whatever gets you through the night ‘ist’. I do, however, have a particular distaste for those spirtualists etc, who prey on the bereaved because they are able to read human behaviour to the extent that they can use their gift to exploit. But there are phenomenon that defy logical explanation, I have have had experiences that have truly felt like divine intervention. A finger of fate that moves the chess piece in your favour, something unforeseen by you, but seen by something beyond you. I like to think it is the spirits of those we love, but I also envisage those old movies where the Gods on Mount Olympus move the pieces around. Where there is tragedy, I revert to Catholicism, I like the reverence and solemnity of churches, and indeed the symbolism of lighting a candle, it heals the deepest pain.
More to follow T - you inspire me! :)
Actually, Ros, to those who read here, any personal attacks and name calling / foul language involved in exchanges involving VT are aimed towards him rather than coming from him.Unfortunately, most of which come from yourself. There seems to be more and more vitriol than normal coming from your keyboard but you complain if a retaliation comes your way.If VT disagrees with you and states why then surely that's what a debate is.Why insist that they are personal attacks ? If VT supports what he says and asks that others support what they say, that too is fair. I've read half a dozen or so posts above this and read what you have said and what he has said.I dare say others have too. That's why your claiming that he disrespects your blog and personally attacks you read very different to the neutral observer.Maybe your regular readers are too polite to point this out to you out of loyalty. I'm only pointing it out to you in the hope that you might re-read the ongoing conversation with a cooler head. I'm guessing that you have never had personal experience of VT in the real world so it could be said that calling him a manipulator, a control freak and a psycho isn't him insulting or trying to degrade anyone.I don't see any such adjectives posted by him to describe yourself in such a spiteful tone.
ReplyDeleteI have spent most of my life having the 'is it me? is it them?' argument 14:15, but as I get older, wiser and more stubborn, I know it's them.
DeleteThose using it to plant doubts in my head had more success in the early years, when I had less confidence and less wisdom, but it doesn't now. Knowledge is power they say, and it's true it empowers you in a way that nothing else can. Having spent a lifetime studying and observing human behaviour, I know a bullshitter when I see one. I've actually gone quite gently with him thus far, the claws are barely out.
Like Kate, I am a finisher. Even as a young teen, I knew would have a book published, I knew I would get a degree and I knew I would be a Lecturer. In the case of Madeleine McCann, my name has been completely trashed online by people like yourself and VT, 14:15, and I KNOW I am going to clear my name.
I'm clearing my name the only way I know how, through honesty, integrity and my talent for writing. In the case of victim VT/Ziggy, I'm happy for my readers to judge for themselves who is the aggressor and the aggresse 14:15.
VT's posts don't bother me a jot, I'm just sorry for him that he unable to put forward convincing arguments for the McCanns.
''VT's posts don't bother me a jot,''
DeleteYes, that's clear by how little you go on about them.
why do allow the drunkard andrew to post here using the name Toni Bennett?
ReplyDelete21.01 22:04
DeleteWho is andrew?
T
The sober ones make little sense.
DeleteGood God!
DeleteAdmittedly I do partake in a little of what the bishop fancies from time to time.
But drunkard?
Begone with you ye sinner and keep your tall tales to yourself!
I've just seen Cristobell link this blog on Twitter so thought I'd have a quick read. No idea who this 'Toni Bennett' persona is but it's certainly not 'andrew'. And I know that for a fact! As much as I dislike the lying loon, then I wouldn't go around pretending to be him. Hope that clears that up.
DeleteRegards.
Anonymous20 January 2018 at 15:14
ReplyDeleteanon 19:14
''surely you can't believe that the kids - all 8 of them - were left alone every night?''
Why not ? For the abduction scenario to work they had to be left alone or we had to be told they were
''I think something happened to Madeleine the first weekend and a plan was hatched.''
Why ? they are a bit vague on what they did with maddy on her final day , plus cleaning an apartment so no DNA traces of maddy exist takes time , Apparently they all share the same toothbrush
''Gerry told a comparitive stranger,Jezz Wilkins, they were leaving the kids alone every night - who in their right minds would broadcast that?''
Hardly a broadcast is it - one person. He said he was leaving the kids in the apartment, not tying them up.
Tying them up would have been a safer option for the children less chance of them wandering and coming to harm
''And Diane, the Grandma- obviously brought along to help with the grandkids''
Why obviously ? for her witty repartee , no doubt , or the others left there own mothers at the bingo
''quite happy to follow her neglectful daughter's example and also leave the kids to go for a meal every night.''
What's wrong with eating each night ? What's wrong with eating out if you're on holiday ?
Nothing so long as you have made suitable child minding arrangements
''I really don't think so.''
Why ? No Kids Mark ?
VT
Anonymous21 January 2018 at 12:23
ReplyDelete'' I'm just wondering how Madeleine could have "fallen" behind the sofa/bed if she had been dosed with Calpol like her two siblings had''
Nobody has said she fell behind a sofa. It's just one of the more popular guesses with no substance.A bit like the Calpol one. Ex Police working on the case said they thought she had fallen from the window , off the record mind , now left the investigation , i always though the fall was behind the sofa , you know the one that was moved
'' These two babies showed no reaction to police and people entering the place and were clearly knocked out enough to sleep soundly when being moved''
How 'clear' was that to the police at the scene ? What would the required dose of Calpol be to achieve the effect of an anaesthetic yet not cause vomiting ?
Clear enough for the Police to want to take the children to hospital , the mother refused , but monitored the children , do keep up !!!
''Even if she did fall from a bed enough to bleed (must have been a lot of blood) there was a huge amount of cleaning and clothes washing going on''
Huge amount of cleaning ? Where did you get that from or is it a guess ? Because the 'lot of blood' wasn't at the scene could mean that there wasn't a lot of blood at the scene. No cleaning up needed. Blood found was microscopic.Who had bled ? When you have 3 children ages 3 and younger, a lot of laundry is part of the routine.Were they supposed to leave clothes unwashed because they were on holiday ?Or does the McCanns cleaning of clothes assist you in building the scenario of children knocked unconscious and one bleeding everywhere ? How have so many detectives failed to pick up on this imaginative theory as you have ? Maybe they did and realised it was just that - imagination.
The fact there was not a scrap of Maddys DNA in the Appartment , requiring Gerry to be marched back to the UK to obtain samples , says there was an awful amount of cleaning going on , also the police had to take clothing out of the washing machine ,
''But don't forget, none of this happened. She was abducted!'' Proof ?
Unless the Police are lying, that would seem to be the working theory of the past 11 years.
Both the archiving summary In the Supreme Court's 76-page dossier, the judges added that there were "serious concerns" over the theory that Madeleine, aged three, had been abducted from their holiday apartment in Praia da Luz, in May 2007.and Leicestershire Police seem to have doubts Assistant Chief Constable of Leicestershire Police, who stated in July 2008 that "While one or both of them [the McCanns] may be innocent, there is no clear evidence that eliminates them from involvement in Madeleine's disappearance."
''The learned Psychologist "VT", who I believe sometimes posts as: "Ziggy" is always good for a laugh..Keep this psycho on a string and we can all have a good laugh.''
Of course, Sherlock. Let's do that. you clearly are a narcissist and seeing you hijack someone else is blog and are posting all hours most days , a lonely one at that sad really , you could put you time to better use child minding for eg
VT
And they say imitation is the sincerest form of flattery. I suppose this is the exception that proves the rule.
DeleteVT
In 2006 all the most senior police officers in the UK (ACPO) issued a letter stating the rules and procedures that must be followed before sending police officers abroad (section 26).
ReplyDeleteIn 2007 in the case of Madeleine McCann all of the same most senior police officers (ACPO) stated they were no rules and procedures laid down, regarding sending officers overseas (pub 09).
There are two options. ACPO is either totally inept or they are devious and dishonest.
So imagine if low ranking honest police officers of OG discovered skulduggery who would they go to?
Would they dare wreck their career by questioning their superior's integrity or keep quiet and become dishonest officers by omission.
Maybe it would be called the Hillsborough syndrome, where many officers were totally dominated by the chain of command, to cover up the illegal and criminal actions of a few.
Where have Blacksmith's comments gone? I could have sworn he had left a comment on here.
ReplyDeleteYou could always read him at
Deletehttp://thediscussionforum.forumotion.com/t76p100-has-this-case-driven-some-of-the-mccann-supporters-over-the-edge
JJ @10:47
ReplyDeleteAt last, we appear to be singing from the same Hymn sheet.
Your penultimate sentence highlights the 'Scylla and Charybdis' surrounding the foot soldiers at Leicestershire, or the Met. for that matter (the latter expressed their own disillusion with a group donation to GA's defence fund!).
Just a brief 'Left-field' consideration in addition:
Long, long ago I puzzled over the significance of Gerry McCann's reported desire to introduce Leicestershire Constabulary into the fray (I think it was GA who alluded to it originally but at such a distance in time I may be mistaken about that).
Anyway, it strikes me that this apparent initiative on the part of Dr. G McCann is very much of a piece with media reports of his 'phoning diplomats and his own announcement to the first PJ officer on the scene that HE had already contacted SKY News, neither of which were true.
I have the feeling after all this time that any cry of 'Send for Leicestershire' on McCann's behalf would not have been driven by his personal appreciation of their expertise in such matters as child abduction but his knowledge that they would already be on the first plane over.
Perhaps therefore we should give some thought as to quite why Leicestershire Constabulary were so quick off the mark, having only learned about the incident via the broadcast media that morning.
As we know from the Needham case, a small child missing from home overseas is by no means a cue for any international policing effort as far as the UK authorities are concerned.
Hi JJ,thanks for your reply Section 26 and ACPO 2006,quite remarkable U turn there on Police procedures on now what to follow,Instinct?
DeleteLeicestershire Police,Gold Group(Metropolitan Police Service)were in the Act from the Get Go,like International Rescue?
If anyone cares to look into how a certain Lord was accused of Child abuse,who then(Lord)pointed the Leicestershire Police to Investigate the child's Social Care Worker(Frank Beck),who was convicted on child abuse charges,that whilst appealing his case,suddenly died of an Heart attack and his solicitor was killed in a "Hit & Run"Accident,for the offending culprits never to be found?
The CPS had Evidence of the abuse directed to the child by the Lord,but some how never prosecuted the Lord,who was an MP for one of the Leicestershire constituencies,oily Keith Vaz was the other MP,who held a "Hand Clapping applause"on Grenvilles return to the House of Common's,seeing the connection yet,Ma Learned friends?
Does the following (i.e. Strathclyde Police) have any relevance in this case?
Delete“The command team of Leicestershire Constabulary first learned of the incident through media reports on the morning of 4 May. They were also contacted that morning by Strathclyde Police because a relative of the McCann family, who lived in their area, had asked them what UK policing assistance could be provided and they passed this enquiry to Leicestershire.”
Anonymous 22.1 @18:59
Delete"Does the following (i.e. Strathclyde Police) have any relevance in this case?"
It certainly does.
The Strathclyde connection, assuming it happened, marks, potentially, the first indication to police of the McCann's Leicestershire address.
SKY News, who broke the story on UK TV, first mentioned 'Madeleine McCann of Leicester' at 10:18 a.m., at which time Mark Warner were still 'hopeful' of her safe return.
Courtesy of the UK Press Association, SKY later (10:41) broadcast the family’s domestic location, i.e., Rothley, Leicester, by which time the ‘command team’ at the Constabulary would have been at their desks, not watching TV.
There is more to Rothley, Leicester than a main street, pub and post-office, yet by 11:24 a.m. SKY's Lisa Holland was able to report from directly in-front of the McCann residence.
Rather more significantly, just outside the palace gates stood two police constables - one male, one female - already at their post.
Why?
The nature of Madeleine McCann's disappearance was by no means certain at that time, nor was her prolonged absence. Rothley Towers was not a crime scene either, as the 'incident' had occurred in Portugal.
The Strathclyde connection, then, becomes crucial to our understanding of how it was that Leicestershire Constabulary knew that a potential abduction overseas might possibly involve them at all, and why they should seemingly have lost no time in identifying the McCann's place of residence.
Leicestershire's impulsivity in flouting Home Office directives regarding implementation of section 26 the Police Act 1996 is another can of worms - but it sits on the same shelf.
Anonymous at 14:27
Delete"...by 11:24 a.m. SKY's Lisa Holland was able to report from directly in-front of the McCann residence.”
They certainly lost no time in informing.
Lisa Holland (11:26am):
"They [the McCanns] have actually moved here quite recently, but we spoke to some of their former neighbours and they said they really were a lovely family and took like most families many holidays.
Former neighbours!
@JJ
DeleteThe Needham case was just a British family abroad who lost their child as they all sat yards away in broad daylight having lunch indoors as Ben played outside. The McCann case was a kidnap at night as parents were absent that sent alarm bells ringing throughout Whitehall. Alarm bells only ring in Whitehall over politically sensitive situations. we have police for things domestic.It's not rocket science.
Anon 13:50
DeleteI have never mentioned the Needham case but you are wrong anyway.
It was not a domestic incident it happened in Portugal where the British police have no jurisdiction whatsoever
and politics and cover up are front and centre in this case.
Rocket science is attention to detail yours seems sadly lacking.
Anonymous 23 January 2018 at 14:27
DeleteThank you.
T
Anonymous22 January 2018 at 14:33
DeleteJJ
"At last, we appear to be singing from the same Hymn sheet."
Your duet has been both informative and enjoyable. Thank you both.
T
Stockholm Syndrome - feelings of trust or affection felt in many cases of kidnapping or hostage-taking by a victim towards a captor.
ReplyDeleteI don't see the connection with the McCann case.
Self protection?
DeleteAnyway, Stockholm Syndrome doesn't apply to Jane Tanner:
“I mean Gerry, the sort of person Gerry is, I could never see us being best buddies because he’s very, we’re very different. I think he’s very err he’s quite forthright and so I don’t think we’d ever be best friends but there’s no problem there or anything like that you know, I feel bad saying that because it makes it sound like there is a problem but there’s not but you know it’s not, whereas Kate I was really, I was getting to know Kate quite well but yeah I think Gerry is sort of like more of a man’s man maybe.”
There isn't one unless you stretch imagination
DeleteI don't know what this Stockholm thingy has got to do with anything.
ReplyDeleteThe 'incident' happened earlier in the week and Smithman ran around wearing a Gerry mask to make us think it happened on the Thursday and that Gerry was being fitted up.
There,see,simple!
I have wondered for a long time if Smithman could have been a decoy or a deliberate deception.
DeleteSomeone dressed and disguised as Gerry to either cause confusion or make it look as though Gerry was being set up.
Ah Mr armchair detective but what about this?...Blah blah blah.
DeleteAnd this ...Blah blah blah.
And that...Blah blah blah.
And don't forget about this too.. Blah blah blah.
So Sherlock get your magnifying glass out and back to the drawing board with you. Ziggy knows best.
Interesting theory 09:58, but it flies completely in the face of my own philosophy, Keep It Simple Stupid. KISS.
DeleteA Gerry lookalike would take a great deal of planning. This group of middle aged white men looked nothing like each other. The Gerry lookalike was same age, same build, same height, same hair colour, same short back and sides and clean shaven. Impossible to replicate by someone from the tapas group. Even Gerry's brother looks nothing like him.
That's why seeing Gerry descend the steps of the plan carrying a child triggered a memory for Mr. Smith. That 'trigger' would not have happened if the child had been carried by any of the other men. John McCann for instance, or Michael Wright. Even lookalike agencies struggle to get it exact, Simon Cowell 2 foot shorter, Brittany 2 stone heavier.
Who would want to set Gerry up, before the alarm was raised and before the authorities were notified? That suggests Gerry has a powerful enemy, a theory VT has hinted at, but not taken seriously by anyone, as far as I know. It actually goes beyond the realms of 007 and into Austin Powers territory.
But, forgive me for being brusque. You have been thinking about this for a while, can I ask you why you think this?
Perhaps you could furnish us all with details such as where exactly the realms are that you're trying so hard to lead us, Rosalinda. Your particular take on the whole Smithman nonsense is far closer to a scene or two from some 1970 films than it is to plausibility . Why are all other suggestions a subject for you to ridicule when yours offer nothing more at all ? How can you expect anyone to believe your claim that this is a blog that enjoys exploring all sides of a debate when you, as a host, are chief critic and ridiculer ?
DeleteIt would help if you occasionally explained your logic when you attempt to belittle the theories of others rather than just call them rubbish and assume that the expertise you wrongly claim to have is enough to carry it through. The number of people who regard you as an expert in this case have long since dwindled.Your credibility is in need of CPR.
@Anonymous22 January 2018 at 18:00
ReplyDeleteHi
"Anyway, Stockholm Syndrome doesn't apply to Jane Tanner"
You're pehaps right, but psychological behaviour and group dynamics,imo, should be applied to the case.
In the interview you refer to JT tries for some reason to distance herself from Gerry without really having the guts to criticise him. She had earlier done so much to protect him from being suspected of a crime, but here we see a sign of what might be a change in attitude towards him.
Since the tapas 7 were asked questions through the so called rogatory letters, not much is known about how their relation to the McCanns has changed, or if it has changed at all. I cannot help but think, that there is still a forced group solidarity within the tapas 7, which, if one could just understand it on a deeper level, would explain much of what, at least to me, seems to be incomprehensible. As for the cancelled reconstruction for example, there must be another explanation than pure laziness as to why none of the McCann's friends was interested in participating in it.
Björn at 18:32
DeleteCould this be one possible explanation for not participating?
"6 - The re-enactment site will be isolated, as much as possible, in order to preserve the security and the integrity of the proceedings. However, we can neither assure the evacuation of the population, nor guarantee the press won't interfere out of the security perimeter which will be established. Thus, we will do our best efforts to try and avoid picture taking by the press. However, we can not completely ensure that won't happen;"
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RE_ENACTMENT.htm#p16p4190
Bjorn
DeleteThere is much to show that the Tapas 7 did not participate in a reconstruction, as they were guided not to by senior officers of the Leicestershire police. (PJ files).
It should be remembered that whilst arguidos, (suspects/persons of interest) Gerry was demanding that Stuart Prior, a senior officer in the Leicestershire police, keep the Mccanns up to date with developments and to be informed which witnesses the PJ were interviewing (PJ files) and the Leicestershire police complied.
How strange.
Is this normal police practice to take orders from suspects?
"There is much to show that the Tapas 7 did not participate in a reconstruction, as they were guided not to by senior officers of the Leicestershire police. (PJ files)."
ReplyDeleteHello. Could you post the link to the PJ files in which the 7 were guided not to take part in a reconstruction?
Hi Mr Blacksmith,can you confirm that Mr McCann had no contact with Mr Stuart Prior over who the PJ wished to interview,as Mr McCann was a suspect and under the Portugal PJ,was bound Not to discuss the case with anyone?
DeleteCare to remember his departure from the video,when blood was alleged to have been found,"This is all about the investigation and we'er bound by"Law Not to discuss it"?
A bit like the"Tapas 7/9 Golf Club arrangement eh Clarence,just a"Bunch of friends"meeting up in August 2007 to discuss their last Vacation together,where Madeleine disappeared from their family life?
You may get this twice since my first reply disappeared in the ether. Yours is perhaps a good question but it isn't anything to do with the post I made.
DeleteI am still waiting for the citation I asked for.
depends on how important the suspects are doesn't it
ReplyDeleteI don't think it would have been too difficult to make someone running with only a fleeting moment to notice look like Gerry.
ReplyDeleteThose apparently distinctive trousers got me thinking.
They could be noticed at once and not make anyone look harder if Gerry had been seen wearing them about that week.
As for the motive it could have been as a decoy while something more significant was taking place somewhere else.
Or if Gerry could be seen by several people elsewhere at the exact or round about time, then it could undermine the sighting.
It could even suggest Gerry was being set up to take the blame by a real abductor.
At the very least it would sow confusion and when/if trying to hide something,then confusion and smoke and fog can only be helpful.
Hi @Anonymous23 January 2018 at 21:56
ReplyDeleteHi @JJ24 January 2018 at 10:07
thanks for comments
Hi @john blacksmith24 January 2018 at 12:32
Would be nice to hear more from you
The cancelled reconstruction has been the most damaging to the whole investigation in my opinion and the McCanns and their friends are collectively responsible for that.
Quote from the PJ files. Paulo Rebelo answering Stuart Prior, Leicestershire Police.
”Regarding the arguido or formal suspect status of Gerald McCann and Kate McCann, it is not the PJ's competence to take the decision on the respective clearance. Thus, it is not possible to ensure the arguido status will be changed;
The McCanns obviously exerted pressure on the Portuguese investigation through their friends and one of the conditions for their participation appears to have been that their status as suspects should be lifted.
As the McCanns, then, officially were under suspicion, they couldn’t have refused to assist the PJ in carrying out the reconstruction, but their “friends”, who weren’t, took the chance to sabotage the proposed reconstruction, not by explicitly refusing to take part in it, but by demanding absolutely unreasonable guarantees that nothing unexpected and inconvenient would occur during the actual reconstruction, which would incriminate them or the McCanns, which was exactly what the McCanns wished or expected they would do. They’re all just as cunning as they are inventive. Since then, much seems to have been done on the McCanns’ terms.
Hello Bjorn. I hope you are well.
DeleteThe McCann supporters have childishly muddied the waters on this ever since the case files came out.
They begin by claiming that it's all Amaral's fault for not having the reconstruction in the first weeks. More junk claims from that source: reconstructions in Code Napoleon countries take place after full analysis of statements by close witnesses. No such analysis had been made by the time the 7 started legging it. And Amaral had no power to stop them.
The reconstruction affair is not complicated in any sense. The Tapas 7 refused to return to help the police determine the fate of Madeleine McCann, their friends' daughter, despite a heartfelt appeal to them by Rebelo.
That's it. Muddying the waters doesn't work and actions speak louder than words: if they'd wanted to help discover the fate of the child they would have done so, just as you or I would. They didn't care.
The Parents did not appeal to them to return and help. They didn't care either.
As the supporters run away, fall silent or die off, so only the actions will be left to speak, as they do above. And just look at what a horrible, horrible message they convey.
That said, I do not share your worries that "nobody will ever know". The reconstruction section of the Archiving Summary - the one the supporters never quote - makes it quite clear what the problems are with the Nine's version of events. Those problems of location, veracity and timescale all remain unanswered.
Unless Grange drops its own claims about the non-existence of JT's "possible abductor", however, then a large chunk of the reconstruction section, the JT material, will be answered by Grange.
There won't be a reconstruction now because it won't be necessary.
Cheers.
Hi John
DeleteWhat the cancelled reconstruction is all about, should be understood by everybody who's now read your post.
I've many times tried to put myself in the situation of the tapas 9, when they were asked to co-operate, and I cannot find any reason as to why I would not do my best to assist the PJ, unless of course I were implicated in a crime, that I needed to conceal.
John Blacksmith 25 Jan 01.08
DeleteI would also suspect that the PJ did their own reconstruction soon after 3rd May 2007 and the McCanns and their Tapas friends knew that and that's why they didn't comply with the request. Nothing to do with finding Madeleine but everything to do with covering their own backsides and not being hauled into a court of law.
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RE_ENACTMENT.htm
ReplyDelete“16_VOLUME_XVIa_Page_4314
Email from Russel O'Brien to Stuart Prior 10 May 2008 14:56
(Processo/16 - VOLUME XVIa.pdf P183,184,185)
Dear Stuart.
Apologies for the late reply.
We gather now that at least Jez Wilkins, Matt and Rach and Dave/Fi are not going/able to make the re-enactment. Given the prosecutor's requirement for all to be in attendance or none at all, and the absolute nature of the planned date, the decision appears to be academic ...
I hope you are well.
Best wishes,
Russel & Jane”
(“…all to be in attendance or none at all…”)
T
Hello T
DeleteYes, they got the chance of a lifetime to sort it all out,but didn't take it.Unbelievable, if they really wished to find out what had happened to Madeleine.
So we'll probably never know who saw whom or what, where and when, and none among the tapas 9 seems to care about that. I had at least expected Jez Wilkins to co-operate, who isn't among the McCanns' intimate group of "friends".
Of course they all assumed or knew from the very beginning that it was about "all to be in attendance or none at all" All I can say is, they played their cards so well.
24 January 2018 at 21:04
DeleteBjörn, my friend, so good to see you back! Frostbite? Snow blindness” You are in one piece?
“Yes, they got the chance of a lifetime to sort it all out,but didn't take it.Unbelievable, if they really wished to find out what had happened to Madeleine.”
Looking from a different angle: they were asked to tell that which, for some reason, must remain untold.
It seens everyone involved in the case has been following good legal advice from the beginning.
“So we'll probably never know who saw whom or what, where and when…”
I would agree with that.
Kind regards.
T
Anon 25 Jan 11.51
Delete"So we'll probably never know who saw whom or what, where and when..."
As the years go by and the twins grow older and wiser no doubt they will start asking awkward questions and won't be fobbed off with meaningless excuses. They have access to the internet as we all do and can read all the information available and the PJ files. They will also have access to the Tapas friends to ask them their version of events 10+ years on.
They may start asking questions as to why their own parents and the Tapas friends refused to do a reconstruction and put two and two together.
They could even fly to PDL themselves once they start working and are independent to do their own reconstruction. I bet G & K dread that day when they do become independent and can think for themselves.
Time will tell.
@ Anonymous25 January 2018 at 13:31
DeleteYes - they will be able to read every word written about their parents on blogs like this and ask the question why?
Hi @Anon Mr T 25 January 2018 at 11:51 and thanks for feed back
DeleteHi @Anonymous25 January 2018 at 13:31
"Time will tell"
Yes I hope so. As far as the twins are concerned I'm quite sure the already know the truth, whatever the truth would be. If that will be further discussed I'd like to discuss that later on.
Good God man!
ReplyDeleteYou've got it.
He was wearing Gerry's trousers.
The scoundrel!
Björn & others,
ReplyDeleteDo you think that by not participating in the proposed re-enactment (some of) the Tapas 7 have missed the opportunity to end speculation? If so, why didn’t they wish to attend? Something to do with the time frame perhaps (between 5.30 p.m. and 11:00 p.m.)?
“The re-enactment, within the LOR, shall take place probably on May 15, 2008, between 5.30 p.m. and 11 p.m., thus covering the time period before dinner, dinner time and about an hour after having checked that the child had gone missing.”
Actors in the Crimewatch reconstruction, October 2013, only highlight the McCanns and their children during the day and early evening, the Tapas 7 come up around 8:30 p.m. when the McCanns are in the Tapas restaurant. Very limited.
NL
Hi NL
Delete"Do you think that by not participating in the proposed re-enactment (some of) the Tapas 7 have missed the opportunity to end speculation? If so, why didn’t they wish to attend?"
I believe that all of tapas 7 plus of course Kate and Gerry know what happened, but as for some of the tapas 7, there're probably a few (at least someone), who are less, or perhaps not at all involved, apart from keeping quiet or not telling the whole truth.
These people have now dug themselves real deep into the mudd, because they didn't take the chance to show what they did or where they were that night. If the tapas 7 group were to split up, we would perhaps learn more about what really happened.
NL 24 January 2018 at 21:04
Delete“Björn & others,”
“Do you think that by not participating in the proposed re-enactment (some of) the Tapas 7 have missed the opportunity to end speculation?”
No, I don’t think so.
“Something to do with the time frame perhaps (between 5.30 p.m. and 11:00 p.m.)?”
No, nothing to do with the time frame as such, in my opinion.
“…Crimewatch reconstruction…”
Hm… A farce/a comedy of errors/an attempt to insult one’s intelligence?
Thank you for asking, NL.
Kind regards.
One of the “others” (aka T)
Anon 25 Jan 12.02
Delete"...Crimewatch reconstruction.."
Hm... A farce/a comedy of errors/an attempt to insult one's intelligence?
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I would really like to know why Crimewatch changed the interior of the lookalike McCanns' apartment from a 3 star ordinary standard rental apartment to look like a 5 star luxury apartment.
And why the door to the children's room opened from right to left obliterating any view of Madeleine's bed on the left of the door opening when the actual door to the bedroom opened from left to right giving a clear view of Madeleine's bed.
Why are they being so deceitful with the true facts making a mockery of Madeleine's disappearance. Shame on all those who were complicit in this fraudulent TV programme. Not so much the upgrading of the apartment to a luxury apartment (is that so the McCanns being well paid doctors wouldn't look embarrassed that they didn't go for a "luxury" apartment) but the deceit of the door opening to reveal Madeleine's bed that was clearly visible to anyone putting a foot inside the door.
JJ posted: "There is much to show that the Tapas 7 did not participate in a reconstruction, as they were guided not to by senior officers of the Leicestershire police. (PJ files)."
ReplyDeleteI replied: Hello. Could you post the link to the PJ files in which the 7 were guided not to take part in a reconstruction?
No, JJ clearly can’t.
Anyone else got it?
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
DeleteDo you really think that that sort of language can conceal the fact that you can't produce the files you claimed in support for your view?
DeleteNow, I feel that a stream of vulgar and disgusting abuse in response to a coldly polite request for the evidence for your claim is quite unworthy of a blog. I have never seen anything like your reply anywhere in the McCann case.
If Ros isn't going to delete stuff like that then I'm simply in the wrong place and won't be back.
Apologies JB, I don' know how that got through.
DeleteJJ does seem to be a bit wound up about something, or perhaps it isn't JJ, but in any event, I'm not publishing stuff like that.
Thank you very much indeed Ros; I know you don't like moderating or censoring posts. I was genuinely taken aback by that, even though you and I have had so much of it over the years.
Delete@ John Blacksmith
DeleteNever happened before?
I remember some pretty vile uncalled language from yourself against someone called Jane a year or so back.
And against ziggy sawdust around the same time too.
Wearily. Yes, I'll rise to the bait. What you heard from me was an accusation that ZS was a "disgusting liar". And I gave the specific examples of his lies from his own post. The lies that he misled this forum with were so brazen that I used the word disgusting. I stand by it.
DeleteAnd if I remember rightly "Jane" was another one who came on here asserting facts, all very reasonably, that she claimed were in the police files.
But they weren't in the files. She was making it up and misleading readers who didn't know that her "file quotes" were fictional, taken from a Paolo Reis pretend file. And she had plenty to say about me here and elsewhere when I exposed her for what she was.
Naturally there were no apologies from either of them to the readers they had misled.
The common factor here is not an attack on personalities or disagreements about theories but exposing pretend facts.
Anyway, I come here because people sometimes ask me to do so. I don't come here pretending to be Mr Nice nor to defend myself against you or anyone else so I won't have anymore to say on the matter in the future.
Q. Why the f*** are so many people on here so angry and bitter all the time?
And I'm very grateful that you do come on here JB, and that you challenge theories portrayed as facts.
DeleteI see this blog as a journey JB, for myself and for those who read and post here and there is nothing quite so irksome as being led off on a tangent. Many of those fooled by the McCanns, were then fooled again by Bennett, Hall and the creepy guitar playing preacher from the Hills Have Eyes.
As to the anger and bitterness, good question. I must admit, I have to be pretty and angry or bitter to 'leave a comment' anywhere, but then I worry that my scathing comment or Bravo Germaine, will become part of my internet history. This IS 984 and then some.
Here, the beauty is the option to comment anonymously, and indeed let rip, should needs must, without being checked up on. There is some sort of psychological reason for it I'm sure JB, but usually when people are being unpleasant they have other inner demons.
Anonymous 22 January 2018 at 18:23
ReplyDeletehttp://cristobell.blogspot.co.uk/2018/01/stockholm-syndrome-or-self-protection.html?showComment=1516645438441#c2494935419404151890
Am I right in thinking that someone had a go at imitating you, comrade VT?
T
Concur
DeleteIt's like Spitting Image around here at the moment
Tee
John Blacksmith 00.21,Forgive me Mr Blacksmith,but the"Gold Group"Metropolitan Police were there to"Assist the Portugal PJ,Not other person's who may have been involved in a Criminal case of Abduction,as per Kate,Gerry intimating to the Worlds Press?
DeleteSurely Both Police Forces were aware of what was expected to be done by laid down standard Police Procedures,this does not Exonerate UK Police who where there with their"Boots on the Ground",that it was still their duty to properly investigate,"Without,Fear Nor Favour"?
Why did Leicestershire Police in April 2008,"Fail"to address the re-examining of their Police witness(2007) statements,that Portugal PJ were ommitted to be present when certain Tapas 7/9 friends,were re-interviewed,Gasper statements,or did it just slip their minds once again of who they were representing,a Missing Three year old girl named Madeleine McCann,not a certain group of cohorts,who failed to re-enact 3 May 2007?
Now eleven years later they are still practicing a"Pact of silence,such delightful charming Adults,setting examples to their off spring of how they once behaved to be noted in the annuls of Time?
Yes T, VT was poorly imitated.
Delete"Case 201/07 GALGS
ReplyDeleteDear Sir
Public prosecutor
Kate Marie Healy arguida in the case referred to above, having been notified (page 3947) expresses her availability to participate in the reconstruction of the events on the second of the dates suggested, in other words on the 15 and 16th of next May. Her husband, Gerry McCann has also already expressed his availability.
Rogerio Alves
Lawyer
(Sent by email)"
@Anonymous25 January 2018 at 15:04
DeleteHi
Yes, it's so true, they officially agreed to participate, but it was just a part of their game of illusion,which I've said, they played so well. As most people have understood by now, they knew that there wasn't go to be any reconstruction, which
Mr T 24 January 2018 at 15:11, points out by quoting from the PJ files.
(“…all to be in attendance or none at all…”)
So what have the anti Mccann haters ever achieved in analysing even single thing in this case over and over again for 10 years? For God's sake the reconstruction that never was has been commented on forever - it is just a hobby/obsession for some people.
ReplyDeleteThe reason that Mccann supporters do not appear to be posting is that there is nothing new to comment about.
I am a Mccann supporter and my support will continue unless there is any concrete evidence that proves me wrong. Don't bother mentioning the dogs, or the reconstruction or the 48 questions. If any of those had been relevant the Mccanns would have been charged a long time ago.
As far as I am concerned Madeleine remains a missing person and what has happened to her is the important thing.
Anon 25 Jan 17.28
DeleteOh dear, you seem to be very upset, are you part of the McCann clan? Do you always hide your head in the sand to avoid the truth and hope everything will go away. Do you not analyse anything that is in the PJ files and doesn't seem to be the truth?
What is so worrying for you? Why do you not want to mention the dogs? Please let us know as they cannot be ruled out especially when so many other deaths have been revealed because of cadaver and blood detector dogs?
Why didn't Kate McCann answer the 48 questions? If she had nothing to hide why not answer them? They were relevant questions with regard to her daughter having disappeared. Let's take one for instance, the question of Madeline been given to a family member to look after. Now why wouldn't Kate want to answer that? Please tell us as we'd all like to know.
Maybe the McCanns haven't been charged a long time ago because there has been many lies to sift through not forgetting the Fund. It there was no abduction then the Fund would be fraudulent. It can take many years to access Funds that have been stashed in overseas accounts, it's not something you can do in a few months, probably more like a few years.
Yes Madeleine is a MISSING PERSON, we all know that, we're not stupid, but how she became a missing person is still open to debate.
Why are you angry at us just asking questions. We're not the ones who lost a child although you would think it was all our faults, no it was the McCanns the people you put on a pedestal, go and give them the third degree and ask K McCann why she didn't answer the 48 questions. She was the one who put her daughter in danger, not the rest of us. She is the one to blame, her and her husband, go and shout at them, not the PJ, not Amaral not us, just the McCanns.
Woof, woof.
A provocative post, given where you've posted it. Well said.
Delete17:28
Delete"The reason that Mccann supporters do not appear to be posting is that there is nothing new to comment about."
Yeah, nothing really changes.
"Don't bother mentioning the dogs, or the reconstruction or the 48 questions."
I don’t, you do.
Crimewatch reconstruction then:
- The twins in a double buggy;
- Madeleine clutching armfuls of tennis balls whilst Kate and Gerry are playing tennis (“One of my photographs is known around the world now: a smiling Madeleine clutching armfuls of tennis balls” – KM);
- Kate and children are on a white sofa, placed against the wall (“We were on one of the two blue sofas, the one facing the patio doors” – KM).
For something completely different.
@ Anonymous25 January 2018 at 18:07
DeleteI suggest you read my post at 17:28 again.
I am not upset. I am not part of the Mccann clan. My head is not in the sand. I do not avoid the truth. I have read the Police files. (end of your first paragraph)
I am not worried. The dogs have been talked about and analysed for 10 years - is there anything new? I have not ruled them out - their alerts needed forensic evidence to substantiate them (as per Grime). (end of your second paragraph)
Kate followed her solicitor's advice - once again this has been discussed for 10 years - there is nothing new to add. There is no point in picking one question out and demanding an answer - she didn't answer the questions - end of - you may not like it but who are you - part of Amaral clan? (end of your third paragraph)
Your fourth paragraph is your speculation and nothing more.
Yes - what happened to Madeleine is the important thing. If you or anyone else online thinks you can solve the case them your head up is your backside - not in the sand.
I am not angry - my post was to clarify something for blacksmith when he proclaimed "As the supporters run away, fall silent or die off, so only the actions will be left to speak, as they do above. And just look at what a horrible, horrible message they convey. " You are perfectly correct - you have not lost a child. I do not put the Mccanns on a pedestal. You are repeating yourself with the 48 questions. The rest of your paragraph is your own anger.
You really should stop trying to read things in a comment that are just not there.
@22:16
DeleteAnother concise, logical post.Well said. I expect your logic is causing mini explosions in certain heads here. Whatever will John 'just call me Google' Blacksmith will make of it all.
@ John Blacksmith.
ReplyDeleteWhen did Operation Grange/Redwood/anyone say that Jane Tanner did not see someone carrying a child as she said in her statement?
I don't know who "anyone" is but the other two certainly have never said that she didn't see someone carrying a child. Nor have I.
DeleteHer truthfulness, which I accept though others don't, is not at issue, as you must surely be be aware.
Had JT witnessed a crèche parent with a child at 9.15ish, said hallo to him and exchanged small talk like GM and Wilkins were doing - talking about where each of them were going and why etc. - then there would have been no story.
And the Tapas Nine would no doubt have mentioned to the police that JT had encountered an easily identifiable passer-by. Instead they wrote an eight hundred word screed together for the police at the heart of which is someone who fits a (clichéd and imaginative) possible abductor in a rigid "window of opportunity" that has come back to haunt them.
I'm not saying they were all lying. They may well have convinced themselves that it was true but that didn't help find Madeleine McCann, did it?
Read it for yourself and then see if you would describe their hundreds of words as a mere description of a parent and child who - like all the children we encounter in the street daily? - looked like she was "sleeping, possibly drugged."
When's the last time you thought that when your neighbours' birthday party for their daughter, say, ended and you watched the children being carried away?
But there's no need for either of us to worry. The police are dealing with the issue and no doubt we will eventually see what the parent looked like.
He may turn out to be a dead ringer for the various, increasingly dramatic, portrayals of bundleman. Or he may be four foot six with blonde hair and wearing spectacles since the age of six. We don't know but it will all come out in the wash.
@ blacksmith 20:52
Deleteyou have posted elsewhere: "Without the JT sighting, I doubt if the Madeleine McCann Affair would even have taken off. It was her apparent mistake – my words – that gave it credibility."
What apparent mistake did she make. She said she saw someone carrying a child. She didn't say hello or make small talk. the person she saw was not someone that she recognised.
You also say elsewhere: "Any time she wants to Jane Tanner can blow it open overnight by saying “I was not mistaken; I know what I saw.” She hasn’t. That’s all I know."
What mistake has she made?
Yes, I used the phrase "my words". Those words were very carefully chosen to be fair to M/S Tanner and to give her the benefit of any possible doubt. That is why I haven't ended up in the libel courts.
DeleteIf you wish to discuss the contents of a post in another place that most people here haven't seen, then you should attempt to join it and make your case there.
Blacksmith 25.1 @20:52
Delete"The police are dealing with the issue and no doubt we will eventually see what the parent looked like.
"He may...be four foot six with blonde hair and wearing spectacles since the age of six. We don't know but it will all come out in the wash."
We've known since Crimewatch 2013 that he stood taller than 4'6", had dark hair and did not wear spectacles - so Operation Grange informed us. His posture when carrying things (like a child) is that of a waiter. (Google 'bundleman' and see photograph).
Ha JB, when I think of Jane Tanner's sighting, I think of a 5 year being shown a series of clipboards. The only thing lacking in Jane's description was bolts in the neck and a bubble caption. Had she described a burglar he would have been wearing stripes, a mask and carrying a swagbag!
Delete@ john blacksmith26 January 2018 at 13:19
DeleteI will ask politely again:
What "apparent mistake" did Jane Tanner make?
"So what have the anti Mccann haters ever achieved in analysing even single thing in this case over and over again for 10 years"
ReplyDelete10 years of tick tock wishful thinking
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wOKQTsrpd4
@Anonymous25 January 2018 at 18:02
DeleteHi
In response to your question
"So what have the anti Mccann haters ever achieved in analysing even single thing in this case over and over again for 10 years"
What has the Met/SY together with the PJ and by a little "help"from the McCanns' own detectives achieved the past 10 years? The Operation Grange, according to Kate in her 10th anniversary interview, are still making progress. That was what she told Fiona Bruce, but will we ever know what that might be?
If I saw that the SY/Met were going in any direction that might lead to the solution of this horrible crime, I would at least have some confidence in the Portuguese/British investigation and I wouldn't feel any need to comment so much on the case. So my question remains; What has been achieved by those whose responsible it is to solve the case.
Nothing has been, or will be, achieved. Why would anything be achieved now with so many eyes on the case for eleven years.OG might be keeping KM's hopes alive but nothing will happen. It's time for everyone to put away their stories and guesses and prepare for the end of it all.Be brave everyone
Delete@Björn26 January 2018 at 10:27
DeleteHi
Correcting my Swinglish.Last sentence should of course be "by those whose RESPONSIBILITY it is to solve the case" Sorry
Compare was Ros says about Payne:
ReplyDelete" it was he who led Yvonne Martin and away and told her to sod off."
With what Martin says about Payne:
" came shortly afterwards to tell her that the couple did not want to talk to her any further and did not require her help"
Strange isn't it.
Anonymous 25 January 2018 at 19:01
Delete“Strange isn't it”
Not at all.
Two ladies describe, each in her own way, the same instance of the parents’ refusing an offer of assistance. What is strange about it?
T
Martin hadn't been invited.She wasn't there in an official capacity. She was alerted by Sky TV. She was intruding when the wound was fresh and Payne was a friend of the parents and showed her out. Ros prefers to create a Hitchcock movie from that. It's part of her expertise ( making things up).
DeleteAnon 25 Jan 18.02
ReplyDeleteWe're not anti McCann haters as you seem to love telling us we are, we are fighting the likes of you who seem to have forgotten about Madeleine but will go out of your way to justify everything the McCanns have done to wipe clean their record of their neglect of their children, although whether it was neglect is still something open to being proven in a court of law.
Tick tock wishful thinking, yes, it can take years to bring people to justice, 10, 15, 20 years, tick tock. There is no time limit.
And how have the police treated their neglect ?
DeleteRos
ReplyDeleteThree times in twelve hours you allow Blacksmith to berate and bully me for not answering him immediately and implying I am a liar.
Then you allow him to cast aspersions about me of a personal nature but are not given the contents.(deleted)
Blacksmith is known to have meltdowns and delusions of martyrdom but to some of us the Mccann case is simply an interesting puzzle, it does not consume our lives.
This week I have also had someone telling me I am wrong over the Ben Needham case but I have never mentioned it on your blog, but it is allowed to stand.
Nevertheless, try as anyone might to dispute it, the fact remains the UK police were acting unlawfully from day one and a Detective Superintendent of Leicestershire Police gave legal advice to members of the Tapas 7 about the reconstruction.
This is documented in the PJ Files V16, as I have already stated several times.
How is it my fault some of your readers are too lazy to delve and read and have particular wider agendas.
A final thought.
When the Mccanns were Arguidos/suspects, senior Leicestershire Police were briefing them on witness statements and investigation strategy, contrary to Portuguese law, or any countries law for that matter.
Who took this decision and why?
Has anyone given any thought to the theory put forward recently about a fake/ disguised Gerry?
DeleteIt got me thinking that maybe we have been missing something all along.
I dont buy the set up idea, or look like a set up,but I like the theory that a fake Gerry could be used incase anyone spotted him, while the real Gerry could be seen elsewhere by multiple independent witnesses and so undermine the sighting and any others too.
Now to me thats clever. I like the trousers idea too.
What do people think? As far as I know it hasnt been put forward before.
No comedy characters please taking the mickey.It just puts people off the discussion.
I did laugh at the good god stiff uper lip comment but it killed the subject stone dead.
Hi JJ
DeleteThe UK police giving legal advice to the McCanns, even if they weren't suspects at that point of time would still be an attempt to pervert the course of the Portuguese justice. I'll read the files V16, which you refer to, as soon as I get time to do so. It has to be discussed
It is very difficult for me to comment when two people I respect are at loggerheads JJ. I really hate to make judgments, but the stalemate you find yourselves in could easily be resolved, by a c/p of the exact words that are under dispute, rather than the more arduous 'read the files'.
DeleteI don't question your knowledge or research of this case JJ, but if you purport a, let's say, controversial theory, then you must expect it to be challenged. I have to say you raised my eyebrows with your statements regarding Leicester Police, they are pretty uncompromising, and possibly libellous. I don’t have enough knowledge about the dealings between the McCanns and Leicester police to accept or reject your theory JJ, that’s why I have allowed the debate to pan out as it has. Others know more than I, but overall, we onlookers only have a fraction of the information, ergo, reaching a conclusion on anything is pretty futile.
As always, I find your input to this blog interesting JJ, and it is much appreciated, but when you enter an arena, or throw down a gauntlet, you have to take what’s thrown at you. Simply by running a blog I am a target of hatred and vitriol, from all sides of the missing Madeleine saga, you see what I don’t publish! Most are water off a duck’s back, they don’t know me, and the hideous allegations they make are not true. Some hit my weak spots, but I’m more of a ‘don’t get mad, get even kinda gal.
I’ve truly got no idea how far this rabbit hole goes JJ, that’s why we always seem to have something to discuss. The ‘Dear Stuart’ correspondence between the tapas and the police is merely the top thin layer of the ice, the ‘formal stuff’ for the record. Who helped the McCanns and Why, has clearly led to a very lengthy and complex investigation. For now I am loathe to make allegations against anyone, including Leicester police, because it makes me uncomfortable. Like the witnesses named in the released police files, there is in my opinion, a moral obligation (and the policy of my blog) to respect their privacy and not put them on trial in a public arena where they have no right of reply. Public figures, political ones especially, we can and should hold to account, they have a platform, they can defend themselves. I don’t think it is fair to the police, those officers who make up Operation Grange, or who attended PDL to assist either the McCanns, the PJ or both, to imply that they are dishonest or corrupt. And if you imply that, or state it categorically, you must have evidence to support it, or it is, put simply, libel. The men and women who work for Leicester police are due the same courtesy and respect as those witnesses who have unfortunately, been preyed on by unhinged megalomaniacs who have put them on public trial in their kangeroo courts.
I think when you get down to the nitty gritty, your basic argument with JB, is that you think the police are ‘in on it’ and he doesn’t. For my part, I still have enough faith in human nature to believe that truth will prevail. The police aren’t a nameless, faceless mass, they are individual human beings with their lives and careers ahead of them. Why would any one of them risk their careers to cover up the death of a child? The idea is not only morally repugnant, it’s absurd. Operation Grange is clearly not just a missing child investigation and it can’t be filed away unsolved. Not just because of the huge amount of money and resources that were given, but because some, or all of it, will be published by the PJ when the case is closed. There is no leeway for anything other than the truth JJ.
Hello. I’ll ignore the personality issues and stick to the facts.
DeleteJJ: "There is much to show that the Tapas 7 did not participate in a reconstruction, as they were GUIDED NOT TO [my capitals] by senior officers of the Leicestershire police. (PJ files)."
You stated as fact that the files, not you, show that senior Leicester police officers “guided” the Tapas 7 not to participate. A very serious charge indeed.
I asked you, without any baiting or rudeness, to cite the file you referred to. You did not do so.
I am familiar with the reconstruction correspondence and the DVD is in front of me now. I see no such claim. Readers can access the Pamalam English translations and tell me what I'm missing.
Now you post: “Nevertheless, try as anyone might to dispute it, the fact remains the UK police were acting unlawfully from day one and a Detective Superintendent of Leicestershire Police gave legal advice to members of the Tapas 7 about the reconstruction.”
What has happened to your claim of “guiding”? You still haven’t provided the source.
PJ files, 4426, 17th April 2008, Stuart Prior:
Dear Rachael and Matthew,
As you are aware I had the opportunity to discuss the proposed re-enactment in Portugal, of Madeleine's disappearance with the PJ Director and Senior Investigating Officer Paulo Rebelo. I explained the concerns that you and the other holidaying friends had raised over your involvement in this re-enactment.
He informed me that he would consider the comments that each of you made and would discuss these issues with Senior colleagues of the PJ and the Prosecutor.
He has now had the opportunity to do this and has forwarded the attached document to me which explains the Portuguese position in relation to the concerns that you have raised.
He has asked that I forward a copy of this response to each of you.
I trust that these answers will assist you and the others in reaching a decision as to whether you intend to participate in the proposed re-enactment.
If you wish to discuss this further then please do not hesitate in getting in touch with myself.
Stu
I see no guiding (nor legal advice, which he was not qualified to give) in this typical letter from Prior. Please just tell us the page you saw.
The tone of the discussions is clear from Rebelo’s replies to Prior with their repeated thanks for co-operation. A typical example:
(Page 4187) Dear Stuart,
As previously agreed, here I send the answers to the questions raised by the holidaying group and Jeremy Wilkins regarding the re-inactment…
Thank you very much, again, for your fantastic cooperation.
Best regards,
Paulo Rebelo.
I am sorry you thought I berated and bullied you. Again, should you find the file I will be happy to read it. It is better if I go away for a day or two and let Ros’s blog carry on while things cool down.
Bjorn 13:23
DeleteI am away for a week but when you find the time check the Mccanns were arguidos from Sept 7 2007 -July 21 2008
then check Supt Priors email to the PJ 16th January 08 (P3965).
"I need to get back to the McCanns as he (Gerry) needs to be updated. He is very excited by an action plan".
What was in the plan, one point was where any info received will go first to the Metado 3 and then to the PJ.
A further requirement would be for the PJ to collaborate with the Metado 3."
And the Leicestershire police thought this was ok and obviously would have recorded all such meetings and phone calls.If not why not?
Page 4072/73 I had a quick catch up with Gerry (good mates eh).
We know Amaral did not trust Prior, it is very easy to see why.
I welcome your imput V16 is even more revealing
@
Delete@JJ26 January 2018 at 18:52
Hi JJ Thanks
Of course, I forgot, the McCanns got their arguido status sooner than I thought.
Anyway, this is getting more and more interesting.
I wish you a nice week away, wherever.
@JJ
ReplyDeleteBlacksmith doesn't hide his disgust of the McCann parents. As such, he receives the special dispensation that others who share the unfounded allegations that Ros treasures which permits him to try and talk down to anyone who disagrees, use gutter language, and call people names like a child . These are the people who continually announce how they know much more than anyone else( including police forces apparently) as they've been studying the case longer. Not ,i hasten to add, studying one particular line of their own investigation ( the parents are guilty of this and that) and ignoring all others or backing their claims up with anything.
Special dispensation lol, as if I am some sort of harridan who scolds everyone who posts here, apart from a privileged few.
DeleteLike your Masters, you play the victim card, again and again. Please do let me know what it is you want to do that I am forbidding?
I like and respect JB, as is my prerogative, that I prefer him to you for example, is just life. Perhaps you should brush up on your social skills if you find this happening a lot.
This is an adult discussion blog and I'm not mum! I don't supervise, heaven forbid, nor do I have rules and regulations. If you want a dominatrix telling you what to do, try the cesspit or MMM.
The truth will indeed prevail. The truth is, an abduction occurred and it was covered up by very important people and a number of red herrings and lies have ensured that the identity of the abductor will never be revealed, if s/he is still alive.Its shades of the Dutroux affair all over. Lessons were learned by the mistakes made in that
ReplyDeleteHi Ros,John Blacksmith,JJ. For the Record,Both Police Forces,Leicstershire Police(Gold Group)Metropolitan Police and the Portugal PJ,were supposed to be engaged on a joint"Investigation"of a disappearance of a Three year old child,Madeleine McCann,3 May 2007.
DeleteWhat they were not supposed to do,was act in a"Biased Way",they were to consider the evidence and Not reveal/disclose Official findings to person's outside of their jurisdiction?
If any Police force was acting out of the procedures they were supposed to follow,they "Aught" to face actions that could effect their status as Police Officers,No matter how far up the chain of command these practices followed!
The Tapas 7/9 behaved in the way they did,it cannot be undone,they failed to assist Portugal Police in finding out what may have happened to Madeleine McCann.
They had No right to tell the obiding Law Officers,what they wanted their close associates as Witnesses or Suspects,as part of the reconstruction.
They had No right to state(Tail wagging the Dog) what has been confirmed as their attitude on this case,"Self Preservation,a Pact of silence"to a little girl named as Madeleine McCann?
17:11 Thank you for your post. The actions of the parents and their friends in not assisting the police investigation is truly reprehensible. As you say, they ALL put self preservation above the fate of a 3 year old child. Not only is that a huge red flag, it begs the question, why would innocent people refuse to cooperate with the police? Actually, I think what the Tapas 7/9, can be undone, all they have to do is tell the truth!
Delete13:53. The disappearance of Madeleine is NOTHING like the Dutroux case and shame on you for suggesting it is. The horrors that occurred in Belgium had the entire country on alert, children (youngest 8), were literally being snatched off the streets.
DeleteThe McCanns have tried several times to suggest a spree kidnapper/killer, even going so far dragging in the tragic case of Joana Cipriano. Joana, if they had done their homework, was an abused, at risk child, and her mother and brother confessed to her murder.
There has never been any suggestion from the police that a predator or gang were active in the PDL area, and 11 years on, there has clearly not been the kind of urgency the police and authorities would put in force if a spree killer or predator were on the loose.
@Anonymous26 January 2018 at 12:21
ReplyDeleteHi
There're so many preposterous hypothesis's surrounding the Smiths'sighting, one of which is that the whole family for no comprehensible reason has made it all up.
Another, just as ludicrous is that about Gerry running around with his other girl, after he had disposed of Madeleine's body, trying to make as many people as possible believe in their abduction story.
We know very little about Gerry's whereabouts after he had finished his little chat with Jez Wilkins which ought to have been have around 21H15/20. No-one can say exactly at what time Gerry reappears at the tapas bar, only that he's seen by one person when Kate alerts, which as far as I understand, must have been around 22H10/15. So Gerry could have been else where for almost half an hour, like in the place where the Smiths allegedly said they saw him around 21H55. It doesn't have to be more complicated than so.
Well done Bjorn for summing up the 'Smithman' saga in a nutshell.
DeleteFor me the chances of the abductor being a doppelganger of the father is a stretch of the imagination too far. This is compounded by the McCanns failure to publicise the efits of Smithman in the early days when they could have made a difference.
The only excuse I have heard from the McCann camp, is that they couldn't afford to publicise TWO sightings. This of course is rubbish, they had the headlines and front pages of every media outlet and of course they paid £500k to Lord Bell to stay on the front pages.
That Smithman looks exactly like Gerry, is clearly problematic and Gerry was not confident of his alibi, if he had been, they would have called a press conference and released the efits, as they did with JT's sighting.
There really isn't any credible excuse for not releasing those efits when they were produced in 2008. Didn't they want to find their daughter?
"must have been around 22H10/15. So Gerry could have been else where for almost half an hour, like in the place where the Smiths allegedly said they saw him around 21H55."
DeleteThe Smiths saw someone carrying a child. Even with your times it gave Gerry a maximum of 20 minutes to walk past the Smiths, hide his eldest daughter somewhere that no-one would find and then return to the dining table at Tapas.
Incredible isn't he!
Hi Ros,why would it be a stretch of the imagination,"Doppleganger or a staged event"?
DeleteIf has,as been stated a aka"Time Frame"DCI Andy Redwood Revelation moment?
Suppose an "adopted child"was to be used to enhance a"Abductor,Smith sighting"would any of the children have close resemblance to a child to have gone missing and accountable by their statements given to the Portugal PJ of there whereabouts.
If,something had happened to Madeleine before 3 May 2007 and you include the sudden necessity for person's summoned from the UK 30th April-1st May 2007 to assist "certain person's",everything is possible!
Ask Operation Grange, Remit"Take it right back to the beginning, to Assume nothing" put the pieces of the Jigsaw puzzle together or cognitive dissonance?
Operation Grange have been chosen to"Assist"the family,as if the Abduction occurred within the UK,surely an abduction is what it is,isn't it,taken against your will.dead or alive!
It is the need to find the "Culprits"that is causing the solution of the problem Not to be solved,do not forget Operation Grange have factured in a 10 Percent Not solvable case aka A/C Mark Rowley,9/10 success rate,tick,tock?
Hi Bjorn and Ros I don't think the smithman saga can be summed up in a nutshell. I personally find it the most confusing part of the whole saga. Anyone who is in the least big interested in the truth and has read the police files or listened to what SY have said can wrap up in a nutshell as. 1 The child died in Apartment 5a sometime between 5.30 and 8.00pm. The dogs have confirmed this and SY confirmed their faith in the dogs by saying that the child may not have left the apartment alive. 2. The man seen by Martin Smith and his family was without doubt Gerry McCann. Martin smith give an eye witness account of not just have seen someone who looked like him but identified his walk and mannerisms coming of the plane. The McCanns confirmed it by hiding the e fits. SY confirmed it by naming him as their chief suspect dispite the fact that the chief witness and the chief Portuguese policeman had named him as McCann ( how cruel would SY need to be to say smithman was the chief suspect knowing so many people believed it to be McCann if they didn't believe it themselves)
DeleteMy confusion comes from what the feck was he doing there at that time with a child. The smiths provided a very detailed description of both McCann and the child. Especially the little girl who could describe the button on McCanns trousers. If nobody told me that the Smiths were Irish I would have known they were by reading the young Smiths girls statement. Irish girls at that age have such a unique attention to detail that I,m certain that the smith girl wouldn't have missed the fact that the child he was carrying was dead or there was something strange other than her being in a deep sleep. Also where was he going with the body. We know he moved her at a later date in the hired car. We know that the surrounding area was well searched. We know she was keep there for a number of weeks before she was moved. We know that when SY dug up PDL they didn't go near the beach where it was said he was heading.
Could I just finish off by asking what you think he was doing or going with the child
Very well explained 17:49, and yes it is very hard, if not possible to understand the Smith sighting and the repercussions it had, so that is useful for many of us.
DeleteI have no explanation either, but I always think of Gerry's blog where he describes a 'moment of madness'. It was something that needed further investigation, and something Goncalo Amaral was moving onto when he was removed from the case. That OG made Smithman the prime suspects suggests they are following the path of the interrupted investigation.
Did the removal of Amaral mean that the PJ or OG couldn't move onto that line of investigation then ?
Delete@ Anonymous27 January 2018 at 17:49
DeleteI think you summed it up pretty unintentionally by referrring to it as a saga.To be fair, the saga's become an Agatha Christie tribute online and it seems that's enough to make all the rubbish spoken about it is due to the enjoyment it gives to the bored.
I think a lot of people who have an interest in the case is interested in the truth.The rest are interested in vengeance. You think it can be wrapped up in a nutshell. Interesting notion after so much time it's taken so far. So, the proof that a child died ? Died between 5 and 8.30 ? The confirmation of the dogs by who(offline) ? SY said they conceded that the child COULD be dead and was a factor of their thinking, NOT that they were looking for a dead child. The man seen by Mr Smith was 'without doubt' Gerry McCann. Yet Mr Smith has enough doubt and it was he who saw the man. You're sure that Mr Smith knew the child being carried was dead.Mr Smith didn't say that did he .You say we 'know' the body( that Amaral says was either buried or cremated) was moved weeks later in a car. We don't know that.We know she was kept hidden for weeks before being moved ? No, we don't.
If we invent several scenarios and exclude any evidence then yes, you're right, it's easy to wrap up in a nutshell.But, if no evidence whatsoever exists to support as much as one of those scenarios, then it's nothing more than an invention of somebody's imagination rather than somebody who recognises the major differences between facts and opinions /guesses.It doesn't matter how much faith you place in a guess, it's still a guess and could be wrong.The eleven years that all detectives have had to discover what you suggest are facts suggests that it isn't easy.It's easy to promote a bias. Much easier than researching with any depth and balancing the facts and the suspicions make up the actual case. You've taken the easy route and gone with guesses and opinions. More specifically, guesses and opinions that only have one suspects - a parent.So, Ros will call your speculating a good summary.
In all the posts you send in VT, you never put forward any other credible suspect, or any other scenario by which Madeleine disappeared. You vaguely imply secret service agents on behalf of the government, but not a single sane reason for such a far fetched theory.
DeleteI just don't get your blind belief VT (20:12, your inability to see what others can see. The abduction story hasn't panned out, nearly 11 years on and no evidence of an abductor. The alerts of the dogs become more significant with every passing year.
I'm happy to discuss other suspects VT, why don't you introduce some?
I made the original post regarding a Gerry subsitute possibily wearing Gerry's trousers incase he was seen or to spread confusion,but I didn't mean he was an abductor.
ReplyDeleteI meant it was part of a staged hoax with a fake Gerry removing or disposing of a body (if indeed that is what happened)
My idea is simply a scenario which I haven't heard before. It may or may not be true.
Nothing needed to have happened before the Thursday either.
It wouldn't have taken long for a panicked person of the group to don some trousers and look like Gerry incase anyone saw him (as the Smith family did) while trying to make sure the real Gerry could be seen elsewhere.
It didn't all go to plan but at least there was ( and still is ) years of smoke,fog and confusion.
Not sure if something you've never heard before being true or not is really worth considering.Or do you mean it's an idea / scenario you've come up with ?
DeleteIt could well have been a fake Gerry lookalike staging a hoax in imitation trousers. Anything but an abductor who had fled the scene in a waiting car. That one is too far fetched obviously.
If the parents had done all they could to help the police at the time by giving answers to all questions,attending a reconstruction and so on and so on, then I would accept that an abductor fleeing the scene in a waiting car would be the most likely scenario.
DeleteI'm sure most people would too.
As for your first point,I meant it was an idea I came up with, which as far as I am aware, hasn't been suggested before.Not in that way anyhow.
19:53
Delete"a waiting car"
Interesting.
Rosalinda, Cristobell Hutton27 January 2018 at 13:47
ReplyDelete17:11 Thank you for your post. The actions of the parents and their friends in not assisting the police investigation is truly reprehensible. As you say, they ALL put self preservation above the fate of a 3 year old child. Not only is that a huge red flag, it begs the question, why would innocent people refuse to cooperate with the police? Actually, I think what the Tapas 7/9, can be undone, all they have to do is tell the truth!"
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So you are now calling all of them (7/9 you don't seem to have made your mind up) liars.
Am I? That they won't help the police with their inquiries kind of implies they are not telling the truth 20:52. There must have been much much more they could have added over the years, but they have chosen not to. They have always led the public to believe that they, the parents and the friends were assisting the police, especially when Scotland Yard, British police, stepped in.
ReplyDeleteIt now seems that is not the case. That means, it is down to the Tapas 7/9, that this case remains unsolved and the fate of Madeleine remains a mystery. I suppose with the 9 most important witnesses refusing to co-operate, the case was deemed unsolvable, but the detectives both here and in Portugal seem determined to get to the truth without them.
But back to your question, am I calling them liars you ask, as if I were in the dock, and you had a legal claim against me. Actually, I don't believe their statements. Can you sue someone for not believing? If so, what kind of antiquated law is that?
Where have you got the impression that they are not helping the Police? How do you know how many times they have been in communication with/talked to the Police?
DeleteWhen you say "all they have to do is tell the truth!" you are saying that they have not told the truth in the past = lying.
No-one will sue you because your opinions are only important to you on this blog - you do not get worldwide press coverage do you?
You are the one trying to pin me down to a libellous statement 09:45, for future use perhaps?
DeleteI do get worldwide viewings but, not as yet, worldwide press coverage. But I muse 09:45, that is, even if my blog were world famous, the McCanns couldn't sue me. I have outwitted them and their high priced lawyers, and indeed the MSM - I can discuss aspects of this case, that are off limits to them. :)
I am not trying to pin you down at all - your words "all they have to do is tell the truth!" are clear and unambiguous. My post at 20:52 was a statement not a question.
DeleteI remember so well how clever bennett said and thought he was before he was hammered in court. You have not outwitted anyone - you are just not worth taking any action against. By the way - a simple letter would stop you, just as it did with Gamble.
'Where did I get the impression......?' Apologies 09:45, I missed the first part of your post. Both police stated they have not gone over the original investigation, ergo, the witnesses have not changed their statements. A simple process of elimination 09:45. If they haven't changed their statements, they have lawyered up, they aren't talking.
DeleteI notice bennett is now getting havern to post his comments as if they are from MMRG. What a fool he is making of himself about Halligen and the inquest.
ReplyDelete5. In addition, Tony must pay a further £47,500 to the McCanns, should either of the following occur:
Deletea. he breaches any of the 16 undertakings, or
b. he fails to keep to his monthly payment agreement.
The Pj set a date for the reconstruction, which was inflexible. Not everyone could make that date, therefore the reconstruction was cancelled. You could blame the Pj for their inflexibility.
ReplyDeleteThat's pretty lame 10:36, a child is missing and the friends of the parents couldn't rearrange their schedules to help find her? What were they prioritising over finding Madeleine? I also read they were asking for a private plane and a 5* hotel, but sadly I don't remember where.
DeleteThe parents should have been furious with them, but of course the parents didn't want to do a reconstruction either.
10:36
Delete"In the letter of request sent to the United Kingdom relating to the disappearance of Madeleine McCann it was requested that the witnesses who were on holiday with Madeleine's parents would inform us about their availability to come to Portugal to do a reconstruction, the dates proposed being 28/29 April or 15/16 May (in order not to coincide with the date of the disappearance, nor with Madeleine's birthday), the appearance of the witnesses and the carrying out of the reconstruction also being dependent upon the arrival in Portugal of the arguidos, without whom there would be no sense in a reconstruction."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RE_ENACTMENT.htm#4185
"Therefore, given the impossibility of postponing the abovementioned audiences [trials] and due to the essentiality of the presence of the undersigned in the reconstruction of which he was now notified for the reconstruction of the facts and on the two above mentioned diligences [the trials], it is requested to your Excellency to start proceedings to set a new date for the making of the reconstruction. Thus, manifesting here the complete availability in the agenda for the days 5 and 6 of June and 19 and 20 of the same month."
http://www.mccannpjfiles.co.uk/PJ/RE_ENACTMENT.htm#re4280
It is really beyond belief how poorly informed some McCann supporters are.
ReplyDeletehttps://twitter.com/superdupedoodle/status/957581406288392192
Idiot ! That pic was taken in Holland years before Madeleine was abducted. Why do u need to lie & twist things to suit?#lyingtroll #mccann
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“Gerry and Kate McCann visit Amsterdam to promote the release of their book 'Madeleine' Amsterdam, Holland - 22.06.11”
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-gerry-and-kate-mccann-visit-amsterdam-to-promote-the-release-of-their-58802782.html